#edchat Archive
#Edchat is a hashtag, a movement—it is a weekly organized Twitter discussion of educators and people interested in education that meet virtually from all over the world. #Edchat serves as a conversation thread on Twitter and is also used for organized weekly discussions.
Tuesday June 7, 2016
Hey there ... let's get this party started...
WELCOME to -- Would the system benefit by having teachers evaluated by a panel of peers vs the building principal?
Hi, I'm new to Twitter, but here to chat! Good topic!
Why Education Needs More Healthy Skeptics and Diehard Optimists Like Larry Cuban: https://t.co/ghF3dwY2yV CubanLarry
As shared by . Love this. Get tinkering folks. Try out new things. Value & foster curiosity. https://t.co/1RiczBo8gm
Yeehaw Jim is here for ...
Yeehaw Jim is here for ...
Depends on the peers & what they are looking for
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WELCOME to -- Would the system benefit by having teachers evaluated by a panel of peers vs the building principal?
That all depends upon the values & character of the panel. We already have such a system in much of with mixed results.
Bingo, nailed it Mary! That is the essential question...
I know I would appreciate peer feedback, but I think it would be difficult logistically.
Adam, 5/6 social studies, Brooklyn, OH...hoping to receive principal license soon! Swinging by this evening!
right on! please say more... about mixed results...
How can Principals objectively evaluate tchrs if they are required to do multiple observations on each? It requires too much time
IT’S TIME FOR -- Would the system benefit by having teachers evaluated by a panel of peers vs the building principal?
I have the opp to turn my classroom into a 21stCent learning space. What's essential? Furniture?
so... a whole lotta NOs... any YESs?
and, the observations are infrequent, disconnected, and arbitrary...
Would be interesting to see peer eval rather than principal. Ts know everyday situations better and Ss might act "real"!
In , this panel approach is common. It is our source of "publish or perish." It can be very political also.
Thanks Kelly... logistically, how so?
I work with teachers. Their true peers are scattered across the district. Wish principals knew what to look for but most don't.
Right now our new evaluation model is so confusing that I'm not sure either can do an effective job at evaluating.
Thanks for the shout out--I'm ready to What's the topic?
Would a panel of teachers with a rotating membership be an alternative to a principal's ridiculous quota of observations?
how to arrange the time for peer evaluators. We only have one free period...
Maybe; might also put tension on peer relationship unless reason for evals shifts. Maybe if not even shared w/admin
(I know, as assc Dean at GT)... am curious about the mixed results.
A1: It would depend on the school environment. If there is a nurturing environmental, I'm totally for it.
Today's Topic: Would the system benefit by having teachers evaluated by a panel of peers vs the building principal?
Get ready for a smart, fast-paced .
In some democratic schools, students vote on the teachers who stay and go each year.
. True, same issue with peers having time to eval though...time
so... is that an alterable circumstance?
Tina, where do you teach? I think we can now simplify the MA eval system--it is based on good research.
Might be beneficial to have the panel as a component of the eval. just as student surveys and student achievement rather replacing P
well then... perhaps an evaluation of the evaluation needs some evaluating?
At first sight, this idea does not appeal to me.
Heartbreaking we have so much homelessness in US. Students can't learn if basic needs aren't met. https://t.co/i8T1TbUuPr
so true! It's hard when a principal doesn't have the content knowledge to evaluate.
topic: Would the system benefit by having teachers evaluated by a panel of peers vs the building principal?
Time is an issue w/evals--keep them simple, MA has a good model and w/streamlining it will be a great model.
We might need days instead of 60 min to debate this topic. I have no opinion, though ;)
This process would only be possible (effective) in a sch w/a trustful, collaborative culture.
seems like lots and lots of time--let's keep evals simple, focus most energy on dev. craft, teaching, collaborating.
Why stop with teachers evaluating teachers? Have all educational stakeholder evaluate all stakeholder. be better together!
Beneficial having administration & colleagues in classrooms. Advantages of being evaluated from both. https://t.co/dDVXXKrri7
IT’S TIME FOR -- Would the system benefit by having teachers evaluated by a panel of peers vs the building principal?
Do principals give bias to "veteran" Ts and are tougher on "newbies"? Would peers do the same?
I like the idea of self evaluation w/some simple additional items.
so... why is it that the educ issues that deserve the most debate are largely ignored?
True, and with turnover, variation of years of experience, job diversity. . .it would be more time than worth.
100%. As peers, Ts should help each other grow. Ranking/Grading could lead to negativity. No one needs that.
made some shapes from wood chips at the playground today! there is always something to do 🙂 https://t.co/PorQhRPA4X
Agree System of learning should be transparent. https://t.co/ANibjI7ebR
Why stop with teachers evaluating teachers? Have all educational stakeholder evaluate all stakeholder. be better together!
At teaching Universities the panel is supposed to assess on tching quality, but we don't always see better teaching.
I'd rather see us move towards strong team building and some collective areas of review.
MO~The state wrote their own evaluation model and all districts have to use state approved model similar to the state's
In MA this is a big topic--lots of time, effort, conversation involved.
I feel like I get good informal feedback from peers, but the best growth from self reflection/evaluation.
TED_ED: Wrapping up Q3, on to Q4
Observations impact teachers, students, administrators and the school yet we spend little time discussing the problems around them.
is there agreement about good teaching practices? if so, how was it arrived at?
One review every quarter, semester or year is a data point. One a day, week, or month…that’s a trend line. What d’ya think?
There is real power in the Instructional Rounds process, too.
When the time it takes to evaluate shadows teaching, learning, svc to children, craft dev--problem.
Current and shared experiences can be used by evaluating teachers to aid in development of evaluated teacher.
I think it’s undoable by one person.
I like a multi-prong approach--self eval, some observations, some data, some evidence--
Views of teaching quality vary so much from one context to another, one discipline to another, one person to another.
It does seem to make sense that a group rather than an individual view your teaching. More eyes more understanding
I think that is where many current models for eval are falling short; focus more on rank than growth https://t.co/YYJ8nm8g62
100%. As peers, Ts should help each other grow. Ranking/Grading could lead to negativity. No one needs that.
I actually disagree--I find that process to be artificial too often.
could also be the opposite ~ out with the old in with the new.
Evaluating teachers? A challenge if in “silo” classrooms. Need to create a FEAR FREE, Fail Forward culture. Recognize innovation
How would teams of peer teachers be constructed? Experience? Variety? Styles? All factors...evaluative framework would need change
I prefer the work of collaborative teams w/good goals, data collection, reflection, revision.
Wrong answers are opportunities for teachers to tweak student logic for learning that truly sticks: https://t.co/QEOfoVKOXE
My district has collaborative teams that collect data around a perceived need in a school. We use EWalk to collect data.
Not if it’s done correctly. If it’s a square filler process, then no process is effective.
Because they take time and energy and many don't benefit people with the money
Yes and no--there's lots of room for wasted time in this regard.
Peer review is only as meaningful as the knowledge of the peer and the peers who’re doing the reviewing… just saying!
So are they considering a peer eval model, Maureen?
It seems to me that frequent & formative peer feedback has far more promise than less frequent evals.
. So. Much. . There is more an atmosphere of competition than collaboration.
Iowa’s TLC plan with Instructional Coaches puts the light on learning! Can’t hide in your room anymore.
yup. It would need to be carefully planned to really work and everyone needs to be invested
Many Districts follow a rubric, such as Danielson's Framework for Teaching.
that is quite the loss over the school year. Curious as to how they collect their data for this comparison.
Who picks the panel of peers to review the peer? And what qualifies someone to be a peer on a panel? Enquiring minds want to know.
We have a cycle of evaluations. Tenured teachers are on a 3 year cycle and get either 3 evaluations or 1 depending on your year.
So true, plus there are a LOT of politics in a school--I prefer lots of deep reflection about impact on Ss.
Hello all! Dan from FL here. Technology TOSA.
There are states that have required up to 6 observations per teacher. How is that ever realistic considering the time required?
Would Ss act differently if a peer came to review rather than the principal?
You are describing a system similar to TKES in Georgia. Still not wildly popular
Certainly. And the model doesn't work as well when evaluating PBL, adventure EDU, self-directed edu, etc.
it's not realistic. It's hard to even get two in per year...
We must move from 20th century command and control to 21st century connect and create. Model for kids!
Hi, Dan. We’re discussing whether the system benefit by having tchrs evaluated by a panel of peers vs the bldng principal?
For example, try using the Danielson Framework to eval a teacher facilitating in a maker space or SOLE
The work you do with peers allows them to see what you're doing and visa versa. Principals miss a lot
Palestinian winner of $1m teaching prize urges the UK to offer adequate support to refugee children https://t.co/MZhUCRAcOZ
. Yes! I was lucky to work Ts who shared this philosophy. We had off evals, but we helped each other.
Instructional Coaches are coaching teachers, not kids.
I'm beginning to think we spend too much time on ind. T eval and not enough on system-wide evals.
such a good question~kinda goes back to evaluations. Evaluating the evaluator . https://t.co/Cr59NsFZNn
Who picks the panel of peers to review the peer? And what qualifies someone to be a peer on a panel? Enquiring minds want to know.
perhaps teacher being evaluated picks 2 and principal picks 2...greater eyes and teacher has say.
Teacher evals are often debated on what is efficient and fair rather than what tool(s) provide the best opportunity to foster growth
We have an eval w/obs, evidence, some data, T reflection, and surveys.
Rubrics have their place, but much value in peer narrative feedback, peer coaching, peer mentoring, lesson workshopping, etc.
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Seems if interested, training would need to be offered. Evaluations can't be subjective.
yes and evaluating what is evaluated...
Such an important point! https://t.co/Fgdt7LzirJ
Certainly. And the model doesn't work as well when evaluating PBL, adventure EDU, self-directed edu, etc.
Benefits to both. Some Ts see bldg admins as a "gotcha" type of observer. Panel of Ts may soften the process
I believe in lots of collaboration w/peers--We collectively assess all regularly as we work for best results.
If the second concern is responded to and answered first, there wouldn't be a need for the fair/efficient concern.
I know that's why I don't like the model--too often those coaches have jobs that do not help, we need more people w/Ss.
How often do Ts get to evaluate the principal? Where is that process?
Building robust models to nurture ongoing teacher self-assessment and student feedback can also be powerful
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Very true and it should start at the top, the principals, IC, and influential Ts modeling for the rest
Not afraid, but have yet to see a model that works well--I like hybrid models where T's coach each other and teach too.
We need more people in schools working w/Ss--hybrid model keeps it real.
Does peers include administration? Or is it “us” and “them”? https://t.co/SHimC4LLPh
I believe in lots of collaboration w/peers--We collectively assess all regularly as we work for best results.
Yes if fear of "grade" is removed, feedback more likely to lead 2 improve, as true for Ts as it is for Ss https://t.co/ItYXrfdGpY
. very true. The growth aspect seems key; perhaps more observation & conversation than eval would be better
Interesting chat on peer evals via going on right now.
When coaches are distanced from the daily work w/Ss--what they offer is diluted, they forget too quickly who Ss are.
Interesting as we just added two coaches in our district
Who do they allow to conduct the observations?
Pretty much all evals are subjective even on assessments as much as much as we wish it wasn't
greater focus on teaming, collaborative work, collective goals, "collective genius," most people working directly w/Ss.
. We did get to eval leadership in our district. It was a survey. Principal saw results. Very interesting...
True. It is impossible to rid all subjectivity.
... yikes, that is a problem.
should not be us v. Them, but rather Us with Them! Process should strive for one goal.
It's very popular, makes admin jobs easier, can help new T's, but have heard of few really good models.
I'm a big fan of the subjectivity. Tons of rich insight & wisdom in that.
coaching is best when reciprocal, with all players playing each role
Most people in schools should be serving Ss--that is critical job, and the job that so many "run from"
Observation Hard for Teacher call each other out. Not my job. https://t.co/pg4ZKF3AJZ
Not afraid, but have yet to see a model that works well--I like hybrid models where T's coach each other and teach too.
kinda sounds like for teachers!
This observation issue is another example of "We've always done it that way, so we'll continue to do it" w/o re-examining the issue.
It's not us vs them when everyone is out there visibly working with and teaching Ss.
*The peers are chosen & recommended by professionals per job title, experience, scholarship, and reputation.
I'm in a diocese rather than a district. No evals but would be interesting to see how it would go!
It is the job of the Principal.
I believe there can be some good models, I just haven't seen or heard about one yet
Our teacher Evals must on objective. Based solely on what is seen or heard.
My colleagues who do peer evals must miss instructional time to do so
Dynamic & behavior of T's in office & collaboration meetings could change T's seeing T's as evaluators raises collegial expectations
Not positive, but I think the intent of the question was to evaluate effectively while reducing the burden on admins.
Agree, w/hybrid roles, we can teach each other, serve Ss together. Much stronger than "one more boss."
It's all 'US' when the goal is on the Ss
as educators we need to stop looking at each other as competition ... what can I do better
Narrative could certainly be used, but I'm getting at feedback that actually improves teaching...not just compliance
How then is the evaluation system consistent for all being evaluated?
Oh...yeah, that would be interesting. ;-)
differentiating roles thru titles tends to be damaging to culture, just adds hierarchy
“Suspensions don’t just cost students learning time…” https://t.co/gUlcSSGt4S Your character initiative could pay off in many ways.
OHI surveys done every few years. It's anonymous, scantrons and everything. https://t.co/TBmCkaItz7
How often do Ts get to evaluate the principal? Where is that process?
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Goal & action--when you're T, you're w/Ss most time, you know who helps Ss and who doesn't.
last principal did his own feedback survey each year, but formally only the district admin eval building admin
I like the phrase that performance is based on the "totality of the evidence". Gives Ts multiple ways/methods to show proficiency
If you audit coaches' roles in many sys--they are admin roles, not rich, deep roles that truly serve Ss.
I feel like that would be an issue that has no easy answer
Eval and observations only matter if it helps you get better ... Can't be just about getting a score
I like lots of diff roles, but I prefer that to come from ground swell. Working in shared model now--love it.
Agreed, and unfortunately in this climate it is largely about the score.
Did you feel "safe" with the opportunity to evaluate your principal?
IMO There is too much square-filling & too little meaningful feedback required by most eval methods.
We coach each other daily, play upon each others' strengths, bring a strong "collective genius" to Ss.
Many T's have too many bosses--less bosses, more people on time w/Ss working collaboratively.
yes but is it wrong for a teacher to say "hey ... There is a better way"
Would a teacher panel be too disruptive to do an observation in a classroom?
But if it's like the coaching model, I noticed this, how do you think this part went? It's not a criticism. https://t.co/w1ZEWXtwbw
Observation Hard for Teacher call each other out. Not my job. https://t.co/pg4ZKF3AJZ
Not afraid, but have yet to see a model that works well--I like hybrid models where T's coach each other and teach too.
I love the idea of "collective genius" which means finding best in each of us,merging that to serve Ssl.
Yes! https://t.co/An0anMLzGF
as educators we need to stop looking at each other as competition ... what can I do better
"Collective genius" - HBS idea.
It should never be disruptive for other educators to come in and out of a classroom - formal or not!
I reaize we have to face these realities, but I try to push for keeping a deeply human and personal approach to growth
The last 2 yrs, we’ve been required to do 6 obs per tchr (w/6 write-ups) plus summative, regardless of competence.
In NY the Superintendent may do an observation of a teacher up for tenure. I guess the answer is Yes.
And do Ss have a place in the observation? Shouldn't we ask them how Ts are doing?
Could these evaluations be scattered throughout the year, so that growth becomes a measurement?
I agree - a lot of training is necessary to make this work.
Nope. We do them all the time. "Professional Studio". Teams of 4 teachers and one admin. Everyone takes a turn.
I don't even care about my score ... I check to see if there is anything original or if it just canned
Schools need to create a culture of US so that Ts collaborate instead of compete.
That's the model in P looks for certain things and can't move without checking those boxes
Ts can get "put off" if coaches begin acting like admin. I've seen it happen. Not good.
One would hope the point of teacher evals is to improve instruction, which in turn improves instructional outcomes for Ss
I think admin has too many write-ups, like idea of T's writing their own eval letters based on T standards.
In Ohio, it even is reported to state & can affect seniority...way more incentive to conform than risk https://t.co/K20mj4v8ri
Agreed, and unfortunately in this climate it is largely about the score.
I agree, I'm looking at the narrative, but sadly the score may matter in terms of keeping one's job.
Depends. Had Ss act like angels & then actually broke up a fight during an observation. Some Ss don't care who's in room
40-60 minute periods and a staff of 50-100 all needing minimum of 3 observations each. That's alot of time.
Agreed. Some of the new frameworks seem to create pos results, but they also disregard some unique gifts & abilities
Is it possible that approach can turn into a "caught you doing something wrong" culture?
agreed. T should give them specific things for them to give feedback on til relationship frowns strong.
it was an anonymous online survey and he had created a safe trusting environment
Not I'd that teacher panel included students. How powerful it would be to include them in observations!
That isn't even possible!
My district has the same beliefs. Provide feedback that is actually beneficial.
I had a situation where Ss were huge pains when being observed during student teaching...one of the best experiences!
Ss fill out a questionnaire on PARCC, but most are frustrated. Their only real opportunity in to respond
What is the required observation duration?
Formal obs by NC are silly. Most of time spent clicking buttons and not rec feedback. Real eval comes in face to face discussion
We always ask Ss to assess Ts & for the most part they're spot on & recognize qualities of good teaching
Is there a personal problem with teachers evaluating fellow teachers or is that lost w/a collaborative culture?
if my observation scores are that low than i would hope I am getting some one on one training ...
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Because of how you handled it?
Actually, I think such a practice would diminish this.
I have many T friends--there's been little positivity w/regard to coaches in general.
I think this is a must. https://t.co/uT2hXUhlqP
Could these evaluations be scattered throughout the year, so that growth becomes a measurement?
Yes, agreed. But I wonder if that truly happens.
. I varies from state to state & in some cases school to school.
Love that approach! Building relationships is key.
I think the "coach each other," "team," collaborative models are way to go.
How do we create teacher eval that nurtures agency, self-regulation, creativity, calculated risk-taking, etc.?
Yet there may be models that support T's well.
Ts need to rely on Ss more when evaluating their lessons and teaching. Needs to be encouraged.
This is a great point. One that truly needs to be pointed out or addressed. https://t.co/IWLoOnQdst
Agreed. Some of the new frameworks seem to create pos results, but they also disregard some unique gifts & abilities
vey sad. We need in not stifling
Okay. I need to work at your school! :-) Your principal sounds awesome.
For the 1st time, US schools are majority-minority. We must our thoughts about https://t.co/0u49Fi4aX6
US public schools now majority-minority; teachers need to be cultural brokers & social leaders, aware of own biases https://t.co/9Kynwf4TAb
rich work can happen w/collective teams. need to identify coaching too from many resources.
yes! Stopped lesson and let them have it! Supervisor was impressed! Principals/evaluators need to see both sides!
Agree - takes courage to ask for student feedback, but it's an important step for growth
GA finally changed it for next yr—2 obs & a summative for satisfactory, experience tchrs. Much better.
Where do you get your best coaching? Some of my best coaches don't work in my school sys.
Thanks for the great conversation! Kids are hungry so gotta go.
when leaving eval my admin always gives me new risks to try out then circles back to check how they went.
I'm excited to be joining the board of w . DM me to learn more about this incredible organization.
Oh, the stories we could share. :-) I think coaching is good, if done correctly.
Some great coaches online,real time,in-house, out-of-house,books,conferences. . .many out there.
Peer review is de rigeur in top companies. You and your boss both choose a couple.
Is it time to consider creating a new position in education, Professional Observers.
Agree! Every lesson is not rainbows and whipped cream. I'd rather my principal see my skills than Ss scared to move or talk
If you're fearful of S feedback that's probably a BIG sign something is wrong in your classroom.
This is so sad and counterproductive.... :(
I wouldn't want to review peers or have them review me--I like when we review our collab. approach together
Agree need a system wide approach to evaluation
they will tell you the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts!
100% agree. Working together we grow & our Ss win
For last couple of yrs, GA required student surveys but tchrs very leery of them. Optional for next yr.
how many Ts promise rewards for great behavior during evals? What happens if evaluator asked Ss if they're being bribed?
I like the idea of ongoing conversations--where are we, where are we headed, what do we need, how are we doing?
NO! I want culture where admin comes in and participate in lesson AND give feedback after. goal ALWAYS is for S learning
A T eval that encourages risk taking and growth requires a shift in teaching culture, starting at the top
hurts but is needed! Accept criticism! Your Ss want and deserve the best!
YES! We want Ss to collaborate + learn. We should do the same.
Horrible!!!!! Spend the time on teams, collective work, truly impacting what we can do for and with Ss.
what about if you invite T in for specific feedback on something they're expert in? Works well at my school.
Our admin does this. He wants best for Ss, so do we--so the collab is welcome, positive.
Yes! https://t.co/I1dFhIra0J
Agree! Every lesson is not rainbows and whipped cream. I'd rather my principal see my skills than Ss scared to move or talk
of course Ts wary. S Feedback survey needs to be created by person IN the classroom.
what's wrong with a video recording that can then be an objective record
I've seen it happen and I wondered what lessons those Ss learned.
Ss in my school tell me right away if the teacher acts "diferently" when I'm in the room
I use surveys, but don't have to share results--we use as team to forward our work.
We make up our own surveys based on what we want to know w/regard to improving program.
If I'm out & about like I should be, it’s not that difficult to know who is effective. The paperwork is the killer for me.
Important that those who analyze results know Ss, understand context.
playing to strength is critical. Too much time spent on remediation
Embrace failure & grow. When this is the culture of the school evaluation is a positive thing.
in NC the T eval system is more time clicking buttons than sending/receiving feedback.
True! I feel like when true collab is happening, though, growth happens anyway. https://t.co/VBwybo69Dd
I wouldn't want to review peers or have them review me--I like when we review our collab. approach together
Imagine a world where we could create the ideal person... should we try? A posthuman Lego construction!
https://t.co/87lUufpQZc
we team taught everything and coached each other as traded roles b/n classroom & coach
needs to be the culture of the whole school...for Ts...for Ss...and admin!
We also model the kind of collab skills Ss need for the knowledge age we live in.
I want admin & peers in my room all the time. Give me feedback! Don't just come once a year. https://t.co/EsjqVXTnF5
Embrace failure & grow. When this is the culture of the school evaluation is a positive thing.
What I love about all of this is that we are looking for good feedback in any form to grow and best serve Ss.
Have to step out for a bit. *sad face Love this chat!!!
Agree remove the labels and move forward
The more we model what benefits Ss, the better we do.
I understand that - it's scary at first. But Ss often give great positive feedback as well
I LOVE that--I truly enjoy growing programs and working w/other T's in authentic, positive ways.
OBS Advice: Tell Ss the day b/4 they must raise their hands to answer every Ques. Raise right if answer is known, Left if it is not.
it was rewarding work. Changed the context to one of learning for everyone always
I recently read some science that supports that too.
Won't get a more honest answer. https://t.co/14YAeKtQ7l
Agree - takes courage to ask for student feedback, but it's an important step for growth
So valuable and important. I agree.
I find that, too. Kids generally have a “tell” that shows what is happening isn’t the norm.
Indeed. If we are serious about moving from a culture of earning to a culture of learning, it must permeate all practices.
Absolutely! We often ask Ss do what we're afraid to do ourselves. Modeling essential
It takes a great leader to foster, support, and nurture that kind of team approach. I have a leader like that.
Agree education isn’t a sport but a collobratation
"When you have exhausted all possibilities, remember this--you haven't." Thomas Edison.
Thanks to our Moderators and all who participated in our chat
Excellent idea - I'm definitely going to share this
That's why I really think we have to look at schools from "living systems" lens--better sys.
if we judged a prius on it's deficits,would end up w/ a mediocre car w/ worse gas mileage but better pickup
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Edison still inspires and so do you, my friend!
Need to audit roles though--some roles very uneven w/some educators w/extensive resp., others w/little.
Thanks for participating in ... evaluating the evaluators. You make us better. Big shoutouts to:
Must be a culture of trust and improvement. https://t.co/9gLNjDLsHm
Is there a personal problem with teachers evaluating fellow teachers or is that lost w/a collaborative culture?
Thanks for fostering a great debate, Tom, Will, Mark, Nancy, and all folk!
Yes, a strong school culture = everyone on board. Same expectations for all,
Most principals realize that good teaching is not always perfect or pretty, no? They take reality into account
Thanks to all who participated tonight in & to my terrific co-mods:
Thank you for my first Twitter discussion! Interesting topic!
Absolute truth; peers must be practiced, proven, reflective, unbiased and qualified as a teacher!
