#vachat Archive
#vachat is a great way for Virginia educators to share teaching strategies, educational resources, and more.
Monday April 4, 2016
8:00 PM EDT
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Good evening and welcome to
Does it Rock or Stink? Each Q will be a simple topic, u choose Rock/Stink and explain
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Please take a second to intro yourself and who's winning tonight UNC or 'Nova?
I'm Reed, HS AP from Charlottesville
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Hey Reed, Tom here, K-5 principal from Lexington, MA.
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Christine. Elementary gifted. Charlottesville. I could be tossed from the 'Ville for this, but I think it's going to be UNC.
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Nova! Megan-HS history Fauquier.
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I'm Dawn, 4th grade teacher from Chesterfield.
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Hey Everyone, my Tweets for the next hour will be part of a Twitter chat. Please pardon...or join in!
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John Bennett Emeritus in Midlothian
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John - Charlottesville - High School Health/PE
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Showing your Philly roots
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Evan Robb from northern VA- Happy to be here
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Yep. I'm still trying to become a UVA fan
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Thanks for joining us from Mass
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exactly! Would love to see nova v 76ers
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Q1: Does it Rock or Stink: Retaining Students
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A2 - As educators we need to make decisions based on research - none exists to retain
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Jennifer Hogan, Hoover HS AP. Joining late. LOVE the topic! TY for the invite!
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A1: Ahhh. Too many nuances. Mostly stink. A second round of the same thing generally leads to similar results.
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Agree. So then why do we do it?
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A1: Mostly I'd say it stinks. I've only seen it work occasionally even at the elementary level.
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Tough one but rocks only if it's determined by all what is needed to turn things around. https://t.co/92mZdEDfoI
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Q1: Does it Rock or Stink: Retaining Students
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A1: Overall stinks. Have you read/seen where it was successful?
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Good question! Has anyone seen it successful? When? Why? How?
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A1 Because people can recall one time they thought it worked and use that as a basis for supporting it
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Because people think more of the same content a second time will catch Ss up. Doesn't usually.
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because it's connected to organizing kids by grade web of bad practices reinforce each other
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Glad to be here! I think it will be a great chat.
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A1: Most of the time, retention incorrectly assumes that the problem lies with the student, not with the institution
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Doing it the same way & expecting different results = insanity.
https://t.co/N2Y6VwSHYn
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Because people think more of the same content a second time will catch Ss up. Doesn't usually.
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YES!!! Great point! https://t.co/lnlcMucYKF
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A1: Most of the time, retention incorrectly assumes that the problem lies with the student, not with the institution
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I think Hattie's research would show it has little effect size. Very little.
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Interesting point. Maybe the teacher needs to repeat the grade
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A1: I think it helps sometimes, not if it’s more than once
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A1: I think it can damage self esteem along w/not having academic benefit.
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We'll keep it moving with Q2 in a second
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Good evening ! Sorry I am late--helping with 4th grade math hw! Lyn, K-5 principal in PWCS.
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Maybe we should stop assuming all S learn at the same rate. I'd love to see more multi-age situations.
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oh good! I know the answer.
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Tracking students...Does it rock or stink?
And that includes all the other names for tracking--ability grouping, etc
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Q2: Tracking students. Does it Rock or Stink?
I forgot the Q in previous tweet
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Q2: I want to say stinks, however, isn't guided reading ability grouping? Thats an accepted literacy practice.
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yet so many of my Ts are proponents of it...
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A1: most research to show it doesn't work. If seeing same curriculum a 2nd time helps, makes me wonder if 1st time wasn't the prob.
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A2; stink, but more than just a general and ap course should be offered.
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A2: Again a lot of nuance there. In general: stink. Flexible grouping - honest-to-goodness-actual flexible grouping doesn't stink.
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A2: Or how about small strategy grouping based on a specific need...phonics group?
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Yes-full family support but are families knowledgeable to make decision. How do we know consequences?
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. This: https://t.co/ZiFLEGVw8w
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A2: Again a lot of nuance there. In general: stink. Flexible grouping - honest-to-goodness-actual flexible grouping doesn't stink.
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A2: Flexible grouping based on performance/ability/preference/deficiency/strength/intelligence/style can be a beautiful thing
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Yes, agreed. Having students grouped in every topic, no flexibility, no movement. Not good. https://t.co/zIVpboW8ZR
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A2: Again a lot of nuance there. In general: stink. Flexible grouping - honest-to-goodness-actual flexible grouping doesn't stink.
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A2 For some classes maybe math/ world language but in general students in lower groups do not have positive role models
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follow-up are the classes grouped that way? ie Dolphins, Barracudas, Flounders, Etc
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A2 It discourages good differentiating
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I can't say I agree with the adjective "significantly." Sometimes it's just more of the same. https://t.co/Jt3MlK9mUX
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(3) The educational environment on try #2 will be significantly different than it was the first time around
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A2???: Any type of tracking stinks - diversity is valuable and so important!!! https://t.co/Xy8PrCAjvO
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Tracking students...Does it rock or stink?
And that includes all the other names for tracking--ability grouping, etc
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Classes would never be grouped that way. Small groups pulled based on a need. Fluid, flexible, based on student needs.
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A2: True flexible grouping rocks but tracking kids so they are always with the same kids stinks!
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A1: The problem with retention is that is demands an ENTIRE YEAR. We should forge mechanisms to allow a retry of smaller chunks
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I was hesitant when made the switch to "no" switch. It was the right decision. All Ss, esp low, benefited
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A2 - Guided reading groups should be flexible- a student is not permanently relegated to a group
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A1: Hard Q. H.S. level see 2 mny Ss slide through just b/c. Some take longer to "get" it. Why is that wrong?
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A1 Grade level retention can work depending on grade and reason for retention. Past Kindergarten it rarely works.
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Absolutely...agree. And students in that group are part of a larger heterogenous group/class.
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A2: Tracking stinks. Flexible grouping rocks. Research shows that tracking is harmful.
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Opportunity to grow and change. Allow students to occasionally challenge themselves (move up) too
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Q2: when I hear a T call different Ss back for reading groups, instead of red & blue group... It rocks
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I think most people will go in the middle on Q3...coming up on Does it Rock or Stink
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Q3: Does it Rock or Stink: Homework?
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Great teachers are always watching Ss and how they work. Nothing stagnant. Differentiating.
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A3: Stink, especially at elementary level.
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I've VERY rarely observed a successful retention in K.
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A2: need stop teaching on grade level, and start teaching on Academic level. They are not the same.
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A2 Ability groping can work 2 fill gaps & build spec. skills. 4 small group instruction it can be successful. Avoid on large scale
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A typo...Cooking dinner and running the chat. About 15 years ago Dr Mitchell led the move against tracking
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A3: Except for nightly reading, homework stinks at the elem level.
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Was expecting some differences based on grade-level too
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A3: Packets, worksheets, meaningless homework stinks. What's the point? Elem. level, rdg each nigh, maybe some wtg.
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A3: Foreign Lang. Math, Sports, need practice, all else, no. Ss need dn time. NEED
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A3:huge peeve of mine. Sucks! I know it is needed for some AP type classes, but 3/4 hours a night? When is a kid allowed to be a kid
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A3: stink. At the HS level, easy to cheat, feels like busy work. Has to be meaningful to the S
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A3: I concur: the only HW at elementary should be nightly reading. Ss will learn on their own when they have the time to wonder.
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A3: My least favorite-Give packet on Monday, Ss race to get it done. Due by Friday. Turned in next day. No learning. Just a task.
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A3 - If it reinforces learning- VS new learning I am not a fan of to much HW it is not fair to those who have no support
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A3: at the elem level HW stinks. With the exception of nightly reading research is showing it doesn't benefit Ss.
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Really, really hate when I see this happen!
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if there's no student choice and it's graded, all homework stinks.
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A3: At HS level, sometimes important. Nothing bugs me more than a T who assigns HW & ONLY "grades" on "completion"
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A3: S said 2day, "even tho we never have HW, i find myself thinking bout all the time." https://t.co/7XzLabaMIM
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Q3: Does it Rock or Stink: Homework?
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A3: Homework absolutely stinks! Work for Home (W4H) absolutely rocks!!! https://t.co/weM8VEow07
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Q3: Does it Rock or Stink: Homework?
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Why do we always say this about f. lang? Vocab, reading, writing, creating all require practic-should be part all classes
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lil bit in all 8 classes is causing kids to have mental health issues.
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You may disagree with me on this one ... but I hate to see false effort be rewarded/enforced. https://t.co/UONr3D0TUd
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A3: At HS level, sometimes important. Nothing bugs me more than a T who assigns HW & ONLY "grades" on "completion"
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A3: I don't give HW, but have Ss asking to practice stuff at home b/c they enjoy it and there's no pressure.
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Need the feedback! What about the student who has already mastered it...why should she be punished https://t.co/4L6sLt3Mi5
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A3: At HS level, sometimes important. Nothing bugs me more than a T who assigns HW & ONLY "grades" on "completion"
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A3: Also, zeros for not turning it in. Pet peeve, esp when Ss know content. Ugh... It mostly stinks, rarely done right.
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A3: parents often think a T is good or not based upon the amount of homework they assign. We need to help change this.
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I haven't read about that. Do you have a link to something about this? https://t.co/TrjVyGfchX
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lil bit in all 8 classes is causing kids to have mental health issues.
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learning is its own reward.
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A3: We should question the status quo by defaulting to NO homework unless a particular assignment is truly called for.
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We'll keep it going with Q4. Some great answers and participation on Does it Rock or Stink
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A3 Fair is not always equal
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A3: Many parents use HW as a way to know what is going on in class. How about a S generated newsletter??
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I wouldn't be thrilled if my doctor told me that she never had homework as a student.
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whole grades thing, you know.
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Q4: Online classes/Cyber Schools : Does They Rock or Stink
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A3: S: Ms. Flynn science hella hrd this yr! Me: Y? S: got A on HW comp. last yr. cud afford to suck on tests. IDK science. Me: smh
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I blog every day so that parents know what we're doing in class.
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The T who "grades" this way usually thinks it's "not fair" if one person is assigned HW & one person isn't. https://t.co/I2MfAI8bUa
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Need the feedback! What about the student who has already mastered it...why should she be punished https://t.co/4L6sLt3Mi5
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A3: At HS level, sometimes important. Nothing bugs me more than a T who assigns HW & ONLY "grades" on "completion"
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Pointless. Lost learning opps because they are focused on completing the packet.
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almost every child retained has come up for child study/IEP conversations later on in school.
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Do your Ss do some of the blogging?
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A3 busywork homework is the worst. Best homework is reading, board games, outdoor play and anything to promote discussion.
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THANK YOU! That is awesome!
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A4 - Online classes have a place if no comparable curse exists- they NEVER take the place of a strong teacher
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Yep. Growing up, my dad would always say "Treat everyone the same but different." https://t.co/YPM96QBh7O
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A3 Fair is not always equal
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When I taught 5/6, they had their own blogs. Now I'm a K-4 gifted specialist. I'm doing it for now.
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I agree...have seen the same thing.
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problem is calling it a punishment. U think it, then kids do too.
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in college, of course... But as a 2nd grader... What impact would it have.
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Cool. I teach 4th grade Center Based Gifted! The kids can do so much!
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A4: Done well, they rock! It's not just 'a course online.' https://t.co/3QTY2hWb4D
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Q4: Online classes/Cyber Schools : Does They Rock or Stink
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A4: Depends on the reason for having them. I don't think I say rocks or stinks. Neutral. Depends on the learners.
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I haven't been impressed with most online programs I've seen. Learning needs to be about more than content
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They absolutely can! I plan to turn much of it over to them, eventually. I also have a class Twitter account.
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A4: Depends on the level. I don't see how elem Ss get much out of online. Ss at this level need interaction with Ts & other Ss
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A4: i think it has a place.... So rocks! https://t.co/8JTyTBLPBl
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Q4: Online classes/Cyber Schools : Does They Rock or Stink
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A4: I like being able to incorporate some online stuff for my Ss, but I wouldn't want it to be the only way.
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A3: If I'm short and need a step stool, that's not punishment, if your tall, you shouldn't be punished for not using stool.
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A4: I think best suited for adults (college) or some Ss that have circumstances where they cant be in school.
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If I had money to spend... It would be on people and not online programs...
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A4: rock!!!!! Ss w/anxiety benefit- prepares for college-flexible learn times-LOVE
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. We just haven't figured out exactly how to do it right yet. https://t.co/DUtgZiZj8t
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I haven't been impressed with most online programs I've seen. Learning needs to be about more than content
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A4: Since I'm at the elem level, I do some online stuff through Google Classroom but mostly I'd say it stinks.
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And the program. https://t.co/X4aMSya11r
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A4: Depends on the reason for having them. I don't think I say rocks or stinks. Neutral. Depends on the learners.
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You're not saying companies are motivated by profit, are you?
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A4 Nothing can replace that face 2 face interaction in elem. school. I have a hard time visualizing teaching reading in a v. class.
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Q5: School uniforms: Do the Rock or Stink
And I guess I could go the opposite way: Dress Codes-Rock or Stink
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A4: I think rocks/neutral. F2F & online can be done awesome & also done poorly. Need awesome teachers, no matter venue.
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No.... But... I simply believe a program like reading recovery is much better than an online reading "intervention"
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- Lots of big business in Ed- looking for magic- Invest in teacher PD- that's where you will find it
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A4: Probably shud have said I'm H.S. teacher....different perspective maybe?
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A5: Not sure I have feelings one way or the other on uniforms. My 4th grader, however, did her persuasive writing on NO uniforms. :)
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A5: WISH WE HAD THEM - rocks!! easier 4 parents, easier for kids. Other ways to b individual.
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A5 I've done this a long time- never been in a community that would support uniforms
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A5. Im sorry, what good could come from wearing a school uniform? I'll have to say stinks.
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A5: Meh. Dress codes are a minefield in middle school and almost always focus on how girls dress.
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to much business given on who will take me out for the best dinner and not enough about our students
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A5: I don't have an issue with reasonable dress codes.
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I'm so oblivious to dress code violations unless egregious. Lots of problems with consistent/fair enforcement, so maybe uniforms?
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At: my 2 middle schoolers wear uniforms.. And I LOVE it. Makes my mornings very simple.
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The idea that appearances (uniforms) don't matter is interesting. In the end, does it improve S performance?
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A5: no picking on the poor kids 4 not having......less competition....less skipping....HS brutal judgments..
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That's the research I'd like to see...How do students see it?
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A5: I'm @ the elem level. Some clothing not appropriate for school. Super short shorts.
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A5: Not sure I have an opinion. Never have taught where there are uniforms.
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A5: Dress Codes rock and uniforms rock if it helps eliminate embarrassment. https://t.co/rPTAiscTTU
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Q5: School uniforms: Do the Rock or Stink
And I guess I could go the opposite way: Dress Codes-Rock or Stink
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A5: dress codes don't work too many other fires to put out.
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A5: Consider: In 2013, 47% of high poverty schools in America required uniforms. Only 6% of low poverty schools did.
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And they aren't any more appropriate at MS/HS but what's revealing for one might not be for another
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they will say it sucks... But, my 8th grader will,own up to liking it...
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Interesting https://t.co/1xix3IzrF9
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A5: Consider: In 2013, 47% of high poverty schools in America required uniforms. Only 6% of low poverty schools did.
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A5: not talking about inappropriate clothes, talking about kids who can't compete w/rich kids. Real problem. too much pressure
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Next question up in a bit. Q6
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Yes- we all need to pick our hill- with all the issues I have- uniforms would not make my list
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A5: Neutral. Never worked in school with uniforms. Makes me think of factory, though!
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Q6: Mastery Learning Does it Rock or Stink?
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my girls are one of the 6 %... Cost wise and argument wise... Makes my mornings so nice.
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A6: Rocks. Not everyone learns at the same pace. Need to make sure we have appropriate assignments for all, though.
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A6: ROCKS - Kids expect to move on even if they don't get it....mastery says, you can't give up, I believe in you.
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A6. Brian from Hilliard OH. Tremendous tool to personalize learning, when done correctly.
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Most of the research suggests minimal neg impact on high Ss with significant leaps for lower
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Yes! Appropriate for all means that some kids will skip whole units!
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A6 - Ok Wormeli again- every major test in life we do- we can redo- mastery learning makes absolute sense
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Definitely! Great point from https://t.co/PdvG9N86tj
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A6. Brian from Hilliard OH. Tremendous tool to personalize learning, when done correctly.
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A6: Learning, not time, should be our constant.
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I focus on extending Ss knowledge of what we're doing rather than accelerating most of the time (in math/reading)
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I've gotta' get to join one of these Great thinker and educator https://t.co/dtETDTM9eD
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A6 - Ok Wormeli again- every major test in life we do- we can redo- mastery learning makes absolute sense
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A6: ROCKS! Hard to do in my district at times though where pacing rules the world!
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A6: With honest and useful assessment, mastery learning rocks!!! https://t.co/AKRB0nmK8l
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Q6: Mastery Learning Does it Rock or Stink?
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Maybe Mastery Learning shouldn't have made the list...We're all in the Rocks!
So why do so few teachers use it?
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Totally get that and do that mostly too... especially in Math.
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Definitely an issue! I'm still working on pacing and appropriate enrichment.
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A6: Mastery learning as personalized learning: Each S with their own pace/target/etc. is great.
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I'm curious to Q7...We'll see how people answer in minute
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A6 - Managing it is a challenge- and it requires gradebook flex
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Q7: Does it Rock or Stink: Emphasis on STEAM/STEM education
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Because it requires that we give teachers the autonomy they deserve
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"Because we've always done it that way." Join 9-10 tonight. Topic: what we need to STOP doing! https://t.co/R0TfM9yelt
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Maybe Mastery Learning shouldn't have made the list...We're all in the Rocks!
So why do so few teachers use it?
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A6: nvr hire carpenter to build house & tell them to go home when deadlne comes. We demand they stay and finish. Same thing.
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That's 9 Alabama time not Virginia time, right?
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a7: now we are getting somewhere. ROCKS! https://t.co/wYb2w7RJCf
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Q7: Does it Rock or Stink: Emphasis on STEAM/STEM education
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A7: Focus on creative problem solving is good but good history classes teach critical thinking, reading and writing skills.
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A7: I think it rocks, As long as we don't neglect whole child, art/music is so important. Liberal Arts colleges, Focus on whole S.
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A7: ROCKS! It encourages deeper thinking that can extend to all subjects.
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My only problem with STEAM: Are students thinking and creating?
It can't be the same ol' math for example
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A7: I gues I R a STEM person; but the emphasis on anything but Effective Learning in general STINKS! https://t.co/6VejIq42OH
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Q7: Does it Rock or Stink: Emphasis on STEAM/STEM education
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A7 - Rocks when it is seamlessly integrated VS forced in
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A7: Rocks! Especially including the A in STEAM! (And I'm a former science teacher!)
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A7: no problem w/it. nurtures discover, inquiry, hands on, math, science. Serves mult purposes. right now, Rocks
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A7: Id say rocks, although I think you can easily go too far with some content and not "spread the wealth" with content and skills.
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Definitely! The more interdisciplinary integration we can get the better https://t.co/YKDFZEuu6j
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A7 - Rocks when it is seamlessly integrated VS forced in
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STEAM/Inventive thinking rock! So many opportunities for creativity and hands on learning
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Yes! Must be quick and then extended into current topics/subjects.
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We piloted Algebra this year. Completely NEW way to teach Algebra. Our Ts & Ss love it!
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This hour flew by! Thanks everyone for a great Hope to see everyone again in the near future
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Thanks for facilitating a great chat. . Nice to network with great educators!
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Thank you so much!! I love these!! a bit late, but not too bad. Sorry! Thanks for follows!
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Time for dinner, basketball and then
Spring break for me!
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Enjoyed the hour, went by quickly. Good night Gracie!!!
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Great chat everyone! Have a wonderful week!
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Enjoyed the tonight! Have a great week!
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Thanks for continuing to lead the community!
