#miched Archive
The #michED chat is a grassroots effort dedicated to giving teachers, students, and parents across Michigan a bigger voice in the conversation about education in our state. We welcome all voices through a variety of projects, media, and social networking. We’re trying to address educational issues through apolitical conversation, spreading ideas and stories of success from Michigan classrooms across the state, and helping teachers and students regain the courage to connect and demonstrate that schools in Michigan are creating amazing opportunities for learning. We want the face and voice of education in Michigan to be a mural of shared experiences and positive examples of connected learning.
Wednesday May 11, 2016
Hi everyone! I'm moderating tonight with . So happy to be here, thank you to the folks for inviting us!
Listening to the webinar for Ts this evening 👍 I want my Ts to use this amazing tool in the classroom
Begin with introducing yourself (name, position, etc) and share your own "best failure" (time when a failure led to something good).
Hi all! I'm moderating tonight with . I'm an education and training coordinator, from British Columbia.
Hello Jeff from Grand Rapids, checking in
Good evening! Rachelle from St. Clair. Sec Instruction Sup for . Trying to narrow my failures to "best".
Hey ! Will be in and out tonight but I'm here! Tech integration specialist in Lansing.
Kaarin Averill tweeting for Oakland University School of Education. Had a few failed interviews before my desired job as a Principal
Love Canadians!😊. So happy you're moderating tonight!
Judy from Livonia, upper elementary media specialist
Hi Kit from Sarnia. Edtech for Port Huron Schools. Good Fail - Chess. I've lost way more than I've won but always improved.
Welcome Judy! Media specialist in my former life. Heart still belongs to the library :)
A best failure: introducing a new tech tool to a class, failing miserably, and then modelling what I wanted the students to learn.
Hello! Carolyn. Failed with my first classroom but found a new position and reflected on my exp. to become a better teacher.
Greetings - Joe from St. Joe lurking on the side.
Anne from REMC 7, Ottawa Area ISD. So many 'good' failures it's hard to choose!
Here's my biggest good failure: Have you heard of the Tokyo Children's Museum? It doesn't exist. But planning it led to good stuff.
I've been there :-) Introducing new tech to Ss is perfect for "Good" failure. Love it when Ss have helped me https://t.co/8uZNMTxwDc
A best failure: introducing a new tech tool to a class, failing miserably, and then modelling what I wanted the students to learn.
Q1: Are there “good” failures and “bad” failures? If so, what’s the difference?
Steve from Lake Orion. T and Dept Chair. Too many failures to count. Have them daily. Makes me try to improve daily.
Cool example. I can think of a lot of failed dreams that led to better realities https://t.co/UixkHm3guI
Here's my biggest good failure: Have you heard of the Tokyo Children's Museum? It doesn't exist. But planning it led to good stuff.
My 1st webinar was an epic failure. Learned A LOT about how the delivery of content is very different than face to face
I failed in my goal to be an athletic trainer for the Detroit Pistons. But ended up in the library!
Hi ! I'm Sarah from Northwest in Jackson. Hoping I can get these kids to bed and chat for a few!
Failure leads to learning. So in my mind...no bad failure. miched Simple thinking I know.
it is very different delivering PD electronically! What went wrong and what did you do different 2nd time?
👋🏽ShabanaJameel
Substitute/Indeoendent Consultant
BayArea
Yes sometimes failures send you in a new direction
A1: think a "good" failure is any time we learn from attempting something new/different.
A1: There are absolutely good failures. Those occur when you can learn from that failure and ultimately be successful
A1: Nothing is either good or bad but thinking makes it so. *except for that 1 epic fail we won't discuss ;-)
Preventable failure is bad. Innovative/intelligent failure is good.
A1: So are there "bad" (or relatively bad) failures? Or just bad responses to failure?
If you've just joined the chat, here are our questions tonight for "Failing Better". We're on Q1 https://t.co/FaKAjLGjI4
A1. Good failures keep you moving in the 'right' direction
A1: Failure can be "bad" if nothing is learned. Same failures, no changes
A1: Or maybe better and worse times to fail. I don't want my surgeon or pilot to learn from failure.
A1: you learn from "good" failures. If you haven't learned anything from a failure I'd classify it as an "EPIC" bad failure.
A1: I think "bad" failures often end up being "good" failures because everything happens for a reason.
A1: Good failures are in all of our exploring and experimenting until we achieve desired outcome or product.
A1. Bad failures are the ones you don't learn from and keep making the same mistakes
A1: the difference between good and bad failures is the mindset: - resilience = good, excuses = bad
A1. Sometimes you have to repeat your bad failures a few times before the learning sets in...
I'm so careful w/Ss inClass
iCan't 💭of a goodfail.
iDon't experiment on👫them.
Esp w/ 📲
I guess I've learned I better tweet faster! I failed... I learned.. Success! Top that one!
A1-Any failure that brings new learning is good.
A1: I'm not sure there are any bad failures, just bad responses to them. Some are definitely waaaay harder to deal w/than others.
A1: GoodFail:😬Apple.
When SteveJobs told everyone to just use GoogleMaps.
BadFail Apple booted SteveJobs out of his own co!😮
A1: failure is only a failure of you CHOOSE to not learn from it! Part of Ed journey, not a destination
Q2: Is failure treated differently in school than in “real life”?
A1: I prefer to think of it this way: Well that didn't work. Try another way.
That's the trick to "failing Better" I think. THere has to be learning and moving forward. Not an end.
A1: I think the natural or unnatural high stakes of a situation can certainly make a failure feel bad.
A2. Yes it is. Whenever we grade a "try" it stifles desire to learn from failure and take risks
A2: Many times failure in school is different. Especially when talking about grades. Move to competency can address that
A2: Unfortunately yes and mostly those failures are represented in "grades"
A1 Good Failure = Anything that moves us further toward better
Bad Failure = Anything that breaks bones:)
Check out - TOMORROW at 8pm, EST.
"FINDING TIME FOR YOU"
A2: I feel the definition of failure is more universally defined in school. In life, it's what you make it -personally defined.
A2: Very different in education. Ss are taught to fear failure, not accept it as a possibility.
A2: in schools failure is a grade or ranking: can end in failure: life allows us to pick ourselves up and move past it!
A2: Instead of pass/fail how about proficient, not yet proficient but on the way!
I'm seeing several responses linking "failure" and "grading systems". How many are working on changing the way we grade?
A2: My opinion of failure is very diff today than it was just a few short years ago. Failure does not define me. I won 't let it
A2: Yes, unfortunately. We need our elders to recognize that sometimes failure leads to great successes -- just not right away.
A2: I feel that how a person deals with failure ultimately defines who they are in a way, in school or out of school - IMO
A2. In school, we often grade "practice" (homework, or formative assessment) which gives failing during practice something "bad"
A2: How about no zero systems? Just as bad as grades. Don't let Ss fail, and miss out on teaching them not to be afraid of failing.
Q2-sadly Ss in school connect failure to grades. In life, Ss takes more risks because to them it's more about the learning.
A2: Grading scale 60% based on failure. Can't think of many "life" equivalents
Q2: I think this is where schools can be exceptional. Schools have teachers, mentors, counselors who can guide failure and iteration
A2: It can depend on the situation but failure in school can seem more permanent when we give grades or make a record of failures
A2: Ss are so afraid to "fail, take risks at school- we saw that at a breakoutEDU in HS Alg this week. So reluctant to get started!
Sorry to be late ! Great topic that many of my HS alt. Ss have trouble with - Sarah Instructional Leader from MI
BadFailure: "breaks bones."
👮🏻Brutality i.e. Revenge for rebuffing👮🏻advances. 👮🏻stole🚗Mar16
As a system we train them for "right" answer instead of learning process. Going to take some work to undo expectations
A2: I think this is where schools can be exceptional. Schools have teachers, mentors, counselors who can guide failure and iteration
I think we've ruined many of them by punishing them for every failure...
Joining late, Tyler from Clinton, MI. How is everyone?
Joining late! Recent grad of U of M, excited to listen and weight in on tonght's topic for my future class.
Failure IS acceptable, but cannot be the final outcome. The mantra of my classroom!
A2: I've never seen a GPA, nor a serious attempt to sort & rank humans in the real-world
Q3: How can we allow more space or permission for good/productive failure in schools?
Agreed. Need to cultivate mindset of "ok to risk" through what we do in our classes and what we say to them daily
A4. Stop grading practice or formative assessment!
Welcome Tyler! Happy to be learning with great educators. Here is smore with questions. on Q3 https://t.co/FaKAjLGjI4
A3: don't connect funding to test results
A2: In School, there are DoOvers or ReDos. I don't think life ought to be that different. I think adults can find ways to turn ➖➡️➕
A3. And use performance rubrics to grade for mastery, NOT compliance
A3: I think providing Ss with rubrics that allows them to evaluate their own progress and final product allows them to grow
A3: Classes centered around activities where there isn't one prescribed outcome, but where creativity & prob-solving are celebrated
A3: How about a failure manifesto? A vision of effort, iteration, process and eventual success for all Ss
A3: make space for risk, permission for all to experiment (both Ts and Ss), embrace student directed learning...
A3: Model it... Fess up and own your failures in front of Ss. They need to see it's ok and what you've learned from it.
Still too many T's do not allow do-overs
YES! This. https://t.co/hMsm9zynKP
A3: Model it... Fess up and own your failures in front of Ss. They need to see it's ok and what you've learned from it.
Q2-daughters dance instructor taught her to say, "thank you for the opportunity to improve myself" every time they "fail"
A3: Allow for explore/experiment time Share findings, revise, explore/experiment again Like a 4 yo with Legos Just keep building
A3: Do we need to change vocabulary? "Failure" has negative connotation. What other verbage would applicable?
A3: Rubrics have been great to allow Ss to see the progress they made and where they need to go! It's a visual, not just a number.
A3: More projects with tangible outcomes- More self-reflective practices for students could help students understand learning
A2: failure is healthy & ppl are afraid to embrace- one of the few necessities we deny its value.Starts w babies and then to school
A3 Modeling what positive failure looks like. Edison and the light bulb!
A3: Teach students to self assess/evaluate results. Revise based on outcomes completed vs outcomes desired.
I've heard the word iteration used a lot lately, we're constantly getting better.
A3: Do lots and lots of practice that is low risk! Show them we are not perfect either.
Maybe not. Change the perception of failure
A3: Also need more challenges with multiple ways to succeed. Hard to value failure if always one pre-define right answer.
A3: And what best responses to failure are! Many Ss haven't been taught or shown how to deal w/it. https://t.co/yO2spn9SJJ
A3 Modeling what positive failure looks like. Edison and the light bulb!
And I think being mindful of evaluation of and during process. Not just all the marbles for final presentation
Areas for growth/improvement is better!
A3: In Baseball players fail to get a hit more often than success! Batting .300 gets you to HOF ... what if 30% success got an A?
HusseinKanji was in town. I still can't believe what ppl did to interfere. .
our school is! Lots of work with these practices
A3: if we evaluate what Ss learn then failure along way can have value. Logical to dislike failure when we punish it and devalue
Meddling/Criminal women. Again +👮🏻
Its like a psychotic v of PrideAndPrejudice. Worse than Zombies. Zombies.
Q4 coming up in a couple minutes...
let's be honest, test scores and funding is a huge negative influence on the mindset for failure
A2: Reteaching Opportunities. So Teat Retakes or more Tests can ensure Student Mastery + T growth.
A3: teach Ss design thinking, collaboration skills, agile process etc. Eg. prototyping is expected (fail and iterate)
Q3: I find the work in Grading Smarater Not Harder very helpful
Q4: How can we assess “good failure” in a learning environment?
Doinks definitely ruin confidence.
And crushes that Entrepreneurial Spirit.
A3: Fail with a smile when you do it right. Shows Ss it's a necessary part of growth. Innovation is not the result of compliance.
A4. Good failure leads to increased motivation and toward a better solution
A4: Evaluate student work portfolios so that they can see their areas for growth and how they have improved over time
A4: Eliminate time as a variable for assessment. Some Ss need more time for mastery. Shouldn't be deemed a failure for this
A4: When mastery and student success are no longer a factor of time alone. That would be a good measure.
A4: Analyze growth. If you have to assign a grade, base it on improvement, or maintaining performance for the top.
A2: Sociology. Social Class. SocioEconomics: How wealth affects status and Social Standing.
Also are you using hyperbole
Great minds think alike! https://t.co/u076U08yIZ
A4: Eliminate time as a variable for assessment. Some Ss need more time for mastery. Shouldn't be deemed a failure for this
Q4: Goal setting can be used to assess "good failure". What is done with the failure is what can make it "good"
A4: Looking at the process rather than product. How did Ss change and improve upon their original idea? Could Ss identify errors?
A4: Reward effort. See failures as indicators of approaching the edge (or going over) and knowledge creation.
A4: We have to constantly assess how students adapt to failure, adjust their plans, move forward after the set backs
What if growth isn't linear? At what point do you assess the outcome?
A4: "Good" failures require reflection which demonstrates higher order thinking. I'll take that any day!
A4. Show that practice/formative assessment leads to mastery by NOT grading it. Grade final assessment and teach success on that
Well NCAA requires defined time to prove competency! Another limitation, similar to testing
I.e. TY for your mom's Business. Any fails are of your own doing? Read this awful📰on HS s put in wrong Math Class+blamed
Q4: Does the outcome matter at all?
True enough - unlimited time is not viable, but we can reduce influence of time on mastery
A4. Reflection also an important part of good failure
That is the question! I actually like Common Core for this reason. Consistent standards taken deeper as spiral.
We utilize SLOs, unique to each student and analyzed over the academic year.
A4: I've failed to label my answer correctly. I should have said "A4" in my previous post. :)
Yes it does but only on the summative assessment
A4: Learning that is referenced as part of a continuum that allows the student to self assess & to see the path forward.
A4: Shift emphasis! Show details of what Ss know & can do. Our Ss get a report of learning targets & can revise at any point in HS
A4: Teachers want to see growth as the outcome. Performance does not necessarily matter as long as there is improvement
A4: Demonstrating how the Ts have had "good failures" and model strategies for growth w/ Ss.
I like this shift. We're always focused on what is wrong, or don't know. Need to affirm what has been learned/is known
Q5: Does failure have an image problem? Do we need to “rebrand” failure?
A4: also borrowing from for next year. Our Ss will reflect on how they exemplify our Comm. Habits throughout their time w/us
We have to use data (SAT/SLO/P-P) I like using LEQ, SAQ, and DBQ for my AP classes.
A4: Important to show that there is seldom an "end point" to learning- just mastery & progression.
A5: Acceptance of failure as a final outcome with no room for growth definitely creates an image problem for failure.
A5: Rebrand? No. Reassess its use/language. Yes
A5: Most students view failure as a destination, Think if they fail will end up living on streets, not amounting to much
A5: I would add that the letter "F" has an image problem & has become synonymous w/ failure in many schools as lowest on the scale..
A5: People often see failure as a permanent state, not as a learning experience. What you take away from failure can lead to success
A4- failure can be turned into feedback and Ss need to be able to reflect on their learning experience
A5: I threw out this question too! ELA teacher in mean thinks of great opportuniit for connotation/denotation exploration
A5 - Sort of. That it is an effective learning tool doesn't change the fact that we, and our students, would prefer to avoid it.
The Wright Brothers and the ✈️.
A5: Failure is often correlated with the "prison pipeline" stigma, which is not fair. Certainly needs rebranded
A5: Any suggestions for a better term?
Q5: Poor grading practices & zeros have perpetuated the problem. Needs to focus on a where learning is in progression.
A5 as we redo standards based report cards this summer..any suggestions?
A5: If there's no opportunities to fail, the bar is in the wrong place. Google x lab is an example of this. Their motto "fail fast"
Grown/Mastery at the end is so much more important than performance at the beginning.
https://t.co/CJSCXztL09
A4: Analyze growth. If you have to assign a grade, base it on improvement, or maintaining performance for the top.
A5: the connotation with failure is usually permanent and negative so we need to create an atmosphere where failures lead to success
A5 - Failure and "a great attempt indicative of someone who is still working toward mastery" are really two different things.
A3: .
I was super cautious bc I had 1stGr.
Older Ss can likely give ⬆️feedback. Make class compliant
A5: Remember that failure/success is a duality. We have a lot of emotional attachment to winning, being the best, and perfections
Using the K-5 What my Evidence w/ Literacy network tomorrow.
we broke down the standards into student-friendly LTs...much easier for Ss to self-assess growth too
True, and we seem to accept that duality better in games and sports. Losing doesn't mean you're a bad player.
Right. And there's a difference between failing and failing to try. https://t.co/HwzfGsxyhf
A5: Remember that failure/success is a duality. We have a lot of emotional attachment to winning, being the best, and perfections
A5: Instead of Ss thinking failure is an ending and cannot move on, we need to show them it is a starting point for learning
BAM! https://t.co/Lw4QFmb9Mo
A5 - Failure and "a great attempt indicative of someone who is still working toward mastery" are really two different things.
Exactly! And for the teacher to assess & plan next steps in instruction. https://t.co/bvFuwb03Qn
we broke down the standards into student-friendly LTs...much easier for Ss to self-assess growth too
Off to get a hair cut, have a nice night! starts soon!!
A5 Yes! Too often Ss view failure as "I'm not smart", "Why bother?" We must teach Ss that when we "fail" we reflect, learn and grow
I'll take failures all day long if the students at least try and put forth effort.
A5: We have a culture where Ts can help w/ any class so they may see me struggle through alg and that helps their confidence!
Wow, the hour has flown by -- a final question in a minute...
Moments liked these I miss College Students.
Yes! is needed to "Fail Better"
Yes, but we also consider "winning" better. At what point is perfection/winning "stuck" or "not growing"?
A5: redefining failure and building trust among Ss might create more space for experimentation and risk-taking
A5: Why are we even talking about failure when we are working with kids that are growing and learning- makes no sense.
Q6: Any additional thoughts on how can we help Ss and Ts look at failure as a learning experience?
Good Q. Sad to see 1st graders feel like math failures when they can't do popcorn math fast enough
I'm not sure I understand "failure" same as the rest. Some talk of failure as "any attempt not perfect." That's a harsh definition.
BAM! I always tell students it's perfectly ok it to know...you just can't stay that way. https://t.co/jW36leoNQY
A5: redefining failure and building trust among Ss might create more space for experimentation and risk-taking
Failure is a swing and a miss... but we do get to go to bat again!
Remove end points to learning- view it as a continuum. https://t.co/umAG8jYKO7
Q6: Any additional thoughts on how can we help Ss and Ts look at failure as a learning experience?
I think there's a lot of student tries that aren't perfect and also aren't failures. They are successes despite their imperfections.
A6: Teach Ss how to evaluate their own work to make it better. I always tell them "When you're done you've just begun."
A6: tell students real experiences of our failures and how we overcame them (inside and outside the school environment)
A6: Need to allow risks and give students tasks that they will fail at to then see what they learn from it.. then do it again
Great point Andrew! Big believer in shared definition How failure is defined is important https://t.co/J9SRIv5dBk
I'm not sure I understand "failure" same as the rest. Some talk of failure as "any attempt not perfect." That's a harsh definition.
Honestly- how sad is that. https://t.co/GprnjjBZ6J
Good Q. Sad to see 1st graders feel like math failures when they can't do popcorn math fast enough
A5 modeling our own failures n how we overcame them n got better helps students relate and see first hand how it can teach us.
A6) If T defined S and F then it is judgmental and summative. If student defines it then it is formative and leads to growth
But what's a success? HR? Triple? Single? Walk? different levels of success too.
Right? They should feel on top of the world every day...their entire future of possibilities is ahead of them
Hi I failed to get to the chat on time ;)
A6: We need to be ok with being uncomfortable and educators need to model being ok with the unknown to learners.
Success is making it to base could be a Hit by Pitch or walk ... many levels
A6 Pause, think, and reflect upon our own individual failures and how we regrouped. What did we do? Share with our fellow Ss and Ts
A6: Side by side. Try with them again, again, again. Look for differences in each attempt. Celebrate differences.
And we wonder why we don't have enough students pursuing math & science fields. https://t.co/nzBD0fbu0J
Right? They should feel on top of the world every day...their entire future of possibilities is ahead of them
