#gtchat Archive
Global #gtchat Powered by TAGT is a weekly chat on Twitter that takes place on Thursdays at 8 p.m. ET/7 p.m. CT and 5 p.m. PT in the U.S. For one hour, parents, educators, advocates and experts in the field of gifted and talented gather to share resources, links, authentic life experiences and insights about gifted issues.
Tuesday April 26, 2016
For the next hour I’ll be joining others at ( ) ~ please pardon the heavy stream or better yet; join us!
Welcome to Global Gifted and Talented Chat Powered by the Texas Association for the Gifted & Talented
Our topic today is “Ability Grouping – Has Its Time Returned?”
Before we begin, please tell us where you’re from and introduce yourself!
I’m Lisa Conrad ~ moderator, advocate, presenter, blogger & mother of 2 gifted young adults from Pittsburgh, PA.
Hi Jo Freitag from Gifted Resources and Sprite's Site Victoria Australia here on Wednesday 10.00 am for
Illinois, parent to 2 gifted girls, school board member
Hi-Tammy Donaway, Salisbury, MD. 7th Grade GT teacher
Don't forget the hashtag >>> ;)
Hi. Gail Post from https://t.co/QsVpwpA7Zc - psychologist, blogger, advocate, mom from PA. Waiting out election results!
Hi I'm Chagall Sierra from Toronto, a musician interested in education, home education, and continuing self-education.
As a reminder, we use a Q1/Q2 format for questions & A1/A2 for answers during
If joining via Twitter, remember to add the hashtag to each tweet
Question 1 is coming up. Check out our new graphics!
Hi Lisa! Carolyn K. from here...
Welcome, Denis! Don't forget the hashtag >>> ;)
Hi! I'm Kelly from WA. Veteran elementary teacher, writer, blogger and homeschooling Mama to 2e DS 10 almost 11
Hi ! Shanna from NJ - mom and elementary GT specialist.
Lisa from MD ELA specialist former GT teacher.
Welcome, Denise! Don't forget the hashtag >>>
Waving hello. Obsolete gifted kid, married to same, with a 2e. Lurking to learn, yeah.
Hi Carolyn - enjoyed your session at !
Thanks, ! I love njagc, they were my first conference a couple decades ago!
a1) tracking is for life K-12; ability grouping is by subject and short term, usually a school year.
Welcome! Don't forget the hashtag >>> ;)
A1) Generally, tracking separates students into separate classes, whereas ability grouping occurs within classrooms.
IMO tracking is what you do with the data & ability grouping is putting those students with a same skill level together
A1 Ability group is flexible, fluid, allows for vertical movement based on eval, performance; tracking is static, permanent
https://t.co/nQaffFRUQd
A1 Ability group is flexible, fluid, allows for vertical movement based on eval, performance; tracking is static, permanent
A1) Ability grouping can be flexible and can allow for more movement. Tracking implies permanence. Responsive vs. labeling.
A1) In tracking entire school pop is assigned to classes by students' achievement level Ability group less formal / permanent
A1) Tracking occurs over time. Ability grouping is based on a particular group within a school year-more flexible.
A1 track is keeping kids in groups along the continuum of schooling. Ability grouping is putting kids in sim ability grps but w flex
A1) Today, most ability grouping is considered to be more flexible than in the past.
Interesting! Had not thought of it in this way.
Tracking has developed a bad rep due to kids at lower levels stuck there; many districts abandoned abil. group. to prevent tracking.
A1) Grouping is flexible when tracking is more permanent
Stay safe, Mary! https://t.co/TVbT5oMRjg
- storms coming into dallas - going to hunker down and join for a while, If I can recall how!
just reply with in the tweet, and you're in!
Many districts afraid to group by ability because they will be labeled as engaging in tracking
Yep! https://t.co/1jC9LGmhgq
Many districts afraid to group by ability because they will be labeled as engaging in tracking
the word tracking to me isn't negative-it's my proof & documentation.I use skill groups as one strategy-they change often
My school has been heterogeneously grouping x 5 years-slowly going back to homogeneous. Hetero is hard-range is huge
The danger of doing by class is ability grp can turn into tracking if not careful.
grouping allows 2e kids to be gifted in their strength subjects, while getting support in areas of weakness
Q2) Why has ability grouping garnered such neg reactions even in face of recent research to the contrary? https://t.co/pdlR4VRb8l
A1) Ability grouping- by standard, subject, etc. all kids to get what they need, fluid, can change frequently... Great experience
A/1 As a GT Prog Coord. I emphasize flexible grouping-want to maximize on each student's strengths. Flex group does not =tracking
Yes! https://t.co/tGNvYRgw5C
grouping allows 2e kids to be gifted in their strength subjects, while getting support in areas of weakness
A2) have heard the term "elitism" used to describe ability grouping too many times to count
A2) too many people confuse grouping with tracking. Worse, too many schools do tracking and call it ability grouping muddying waters
because when used poorly-kids can be "turtles" or "Foxes" for too long. And Everyone knows who belongs to each group
Sorry to be joining late... Hunkered down across town
A2) So often, new practices are introduced into education without adequate PD/training. This happened w/ability grouping.
A2: I don't think the research is well known/trusted, and/or so much right now is about UDL/DI.
A2) the neg. comes from misunderstandings about what it means to be gifted--some equate GT with entitlement.
flexible grouping is where I feel at home - all students benefit
A2 - Great question! Emphasis has been on closing the achievement gap, not growth.
<< Advisor Hi, Tracy! Stay safe!
A2) Possibly because of confusion with tracking possibly because of accusations of elitism
A2 Kids stuck in the same track - not allowed to move out; negative stereotypes; least experienced teachers with at-risk kids
A2) Administrators creating the classes often want to be 'fair' to the educator not grouping them together
A2: See my prev tweet, but seems to come down to have's vs. not's. Parents forget what is best for child-worried about label
All children have needs to be addressed! https://t.co/0wMluimw3b
A2 - Great question! Emphasis has been on closing the achievement gap, not growth.
so true - value added has done some good for helping to see the growth mindset
A2) The feelings/well-being of all children must be considered. No child’s self-worth should be put into question
A2 Assumption that at-risk kids will improve if grouped together with advanced kids - assume it will somehow inspire them
when in reality the research shows it does more harm than good for both groups
Many of us know this not to be true! https://t.co/hR3QJQlLOv
A2 Assumption that at-risk kids will improve if grouped together with advanced kids - assume it will somehow inspire them
In my experience with this, it can go both ways. At risk either rise to occasion or sink
A2 Assumption that at-risk kids' self-esteem is harmed if not placed in same classes as advanced students
Agreed RT A2 Assumption that at-risk kids' self-esteem is harmed if not placed in same classes as advanced students
A2. too many educators feel that if they're already above grade level, they need no education. all. year.
Hello all! Intervention specialist from Texas. HS mom. Stalking the tonight.
Agree NCLB was really No Child Gets Ahead-at least for GT students.
A2 Good question! This is one I ask all the time.
A2 Assumption that somehow "differentiated instruction" will solve all problems and make grouping all kids together manageable
A3) Without being able to develop athletic talent, sports would eventually cease to be what they are today.
A3) Travel Ball and Optimist sports would go out of business?
A2) We confuse potential with need. Ability grouping meets a need, but it is seen as predicting who will succeed and who won't.
A3) Sport talent is developed through identification of top athletes, providing the best coaches, and training.
Yes... In my exp when placed in ability groups I have seen at-risk rise to be leaders and more self confident.
A3) ability grouping is "legal" in everything except academics. No one wants to admit someone else is smarter / better in academics
A3) Some U.S. colleges seek commitments from top athletes while still in middle school.
Just popping in for a few from NW Houston. I'm a GT Specialist at a public elem school. I have 2 grown GT kids.
A3) , Q3 made me chuckle...sighing.
A3 These are great examples of where ability grouping is accepted. Also in music, creative arts, chess, other skills
A3) Without ability groups future Olympic swimmers would have to paddle in the shallow end of pool till all were at same level
Isn't that the truth! https://t.co/yLfWDw3tZE
A3) Without ability groups future Olympic swimmers would have to paddle in the shallow end of pool till all were at same level
A3) I use this analogy w/ respect to cooperative learning. We learn & grow when we are challenged by like-ability peers.
A3) My husband would be bored on the weekend! ;) Talent is nurtured in sports...
We’re already half way through our chat! Thanks for all the great sharing.
Final Recommendations Fremont S.D. Strategic Plan Future of Education at Ellis School Committee (pdf) https://t.co/N9gM5ZcdZJ
Great example of grouping by abilities
And weeknigts and some weekdays!
Q3: Welll, that makes the water muddy! Ditto and - you took my words! Reality- someone always stands out
A3) I would add though that we also learn & grow from different perspectives - which is why I advocate flex grouping over tracking.
Final Recommendations Fremont S.D. Strategic Plan Future of Education at Ellis School Committee (pdf) https://t.co/N9gM5YUCB9
A3 Putting an unathletic kid on a varsity team would be torture for the child. Why do this in academics?
A3 Another I ask all the time. We ability group in math & advance Ss as needed. In HS we ability group by talent in the arts too.
Exactly! https://t.co/MBz9S1z6T3
A3 Putting an unathletic kid on a varsity team would be torture for the child. Why do this in academics?
A4) Good old Group A (smart), Group B (average), Group C (not smart/bad!) was my MS grouping. Was placed in B, and was devastated!
A4) Interests and abilities.
Which is why I'm including links. We can do better.
A4) our district groups kids starting in middle school. A team is kids in honors English or Math or both. The teams never mix.
- in the dark ages, my small elementary school grouped grades together.
Students assigned center row learned both grades
Forgot to introduce myself. Casey, secondary GT consultant for DMPS.
A4) Some schools grouped students based on factors other than ability; relying on observations only.
A4) our middle schools group for reading and/or math but are mixed ability for science and social studies.
1st daughter was in pull out ability grouping, 2nd daughter is "differentiated". The differences are profound.
A4) Some schools use mixed-ability grouping which can place undue pressure on gifted students
Yes, we have to do better. Personalization, not degradation, right?
Effects of Within-Class Ability Grouping on Academic Achievement in Early Elem Years (Abstract) https://t.co/lcvFZsTvTz
some have even made groupings for social/personality traits instead of focused instruction
As a 2nd grade teacher our HRs were mixed ab but we grouped by pretest based on standards in math/ELA so each standard was ab group
A little late, South Carolina represented.
A4 Mixed ability grouping is a disaster for GT students, IMO. Besides learning deficits, they face huge social dilemmas
Never introduced myself - Katie Davis - GIS - Ohio
Q5) How much influence does the selection process have on outcomes realized from ability grouping? https://t.co/28FETYvhsU
A4 I don't really remember grouping growing up. Advanced classes in HS, yes & still do. We had ability groups when I first in MS.
A4 Mixed ability classes also very difficult for teachers
A4) Some schools use vertical timetable every year has subject at same time students can go to appropriate level for that subject
It was amazing - when I left the classroom to be a GIS, they quit doing it - sad.
What a simple solution! Scheduling often used as an excuse here! https://t.co/Ddu7vCzG5H
A4) Some schools use vertical timetable every year has subject at same time students can go to appropriate level for that subject
A5) The selection process will have a very important influence on the success of the ability group
A5) if the selection process is too wide, the ability group cannot work at its ability.
A5 Selection has an effect - influences pacing, intensity of instruction since less differentiation needed
A5) The selection process or identification is too often tied to human bias. All children should be screened.
Yes! RT A5) The selection process or identification is too often tied to human bias. All children should be screened.
A3 Putting a varsity player on a freshman team can also be torture
Exactly! RT A3 Putting a varsity player on a freshman team can also be torture
A5) Data-based selection is a lot more equitable (race, sex, SES) than recommendation-based selection.
A5) makes a huge difference - difficult to find one reliable tool, must use a variety to ensure accurate selection
A5) Flexible grouping & regrouping need to respond to ongoing assessment of progress.
A5: Even if S's are grouped homogeneously, the range is still very wide. Flex grouping still has its place within that subgroup
A5 the selection process must be clear & data based. Multiple year in MS. Grouping must address a need & not be seen as a "prize"
Agreed! https://t.co/b2mlt2ZOIk
A5) Data-based selection is a lot more equitable (race, sex, SES) than recommendation-based selection.
Final question is coming up!
A5 Students feel safer to open up with like-minded peers - improves class interactions
FIP plays a huge part for our district for flexible groups within subject areas!
- what if 'assertive/aggressive' parents influence selection 'process' -high achievers vs gifted?
There are many ways to assess students that we should employ for selection My Assessment pg https://t.co/Q06pwgykId Love 360 degree
Don't let them RT - what if 'assertive/aggressive' parents influence selection 'process' -high achievers vs gifted?
A6) start by using standardized assessments to eliminate human bias.
A5) ID is tough. Ability grouping needs to address a need - not just skim off some % of Ss.
A6) States w/ larger % of 8th grade Ss in tracked math had larger % of high-scoring AP students four years later. (1/2)
A6) Heightened AP performance held across racial subgroups—white, black & Hispanic. (2/2)
You need both data and teacher recommendation.
If comprehensive screening & data guide selection, those parents have less undue influence.
Education for Upward Mobility – Tracking in Middle School: A Surprising Ally in the Pursuit of Equity? (pdf) https://t.co/JlaGyf1Wzc
A6) Equity has a better chance to occur when the ‘human’ factor is reduced; reliance on universal screening is better.
I agree - have a few gifted Ss who have poor test skills but exceed all academic criteria for their same age peers
A6:Have to stick with the data-Even though you have some smart kids, those few truly gifted need even more personalized learning
A6) Flexibility (again) & good PD for Ts to identify GT needs among underrepresented populations.
I was actually looking for this article the other day! . Saw KR present her findings at a conference in the past.
A6 Treat it the same way we do to make sure we have diversity in our identification. Multiple criteria, portfolios, & T rec.
Agreed! This does happen in classrooms with effective and reflective teachers
T recs are notoriously biased. They can only be one small part of ID, or we end up with white middle/upper class groups
A6) Recent research suggests tracking high-achievers across the board ( all groups ) boosts performance. (Card/Giuliano 2014)
A6 Need universal screening, repeated evals to find kids who may be overlooked
I have seen a T recommend 10 out of their 22 students for gifted rec... better PD needed there!
A6) Parent bias as well ... higher socio-economics/race; more apt to advocate for placement.
A6) Need to look @ local population & culture. Which subgroups are missed? Univ. screening, but also mult. meas. & alt. pathways.
We’ve come to the end of our chat today … final thoughts?
Absolutely. My dad didn't want me tested because he "didn't want you thinking you're better than anyone" result: bullied.
. I have seen this too. Teachers mean well just don't know what to look for.
This will be archived at and the link will be shared via later today
Truly need more PD in this area! https://t.co/9GRlNPvZyV
. I have seen this too. Teachers mean well just don't know what to look for.
Thank you Lisa and advisory board, sponsors,supporters and everyone for another interesting
Thanks to the extraordinary staff at for their awesome support; we couldn’t do it without them!
, great job moderating! Thanks for the chat, and great questioning!
Thanks to the Advisory Board:
So heartened to see reactionary stance to prevent tracking now softening to consider flexible ability grouping in some districts
Agree data is essential, but can you dismiss an experienced educators opinion? Need to know the individual student.
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Our next chat will be Tues May 3rd at 8E/7C/6M/5P (US)/Wed 4th May at 1AM (UK)/12.00 NZST/10.00 AEST
