Welcome to tonight's #edchatie LIVE hour of discussion.
As usual, before we begin, please introduce yourself and remember to always add in the hashtag #edchatie to all your tweets so they can be added to the transcription at the end.
#edchatie Is group really a 'new' way to teach. Hasn't group week always been used in Primary? There is certainly room for both. I have noticed delivering CPD on the @JCforTeachers#coding short course that the requirement for groupwork in the assessment is radical.
OK then, let's begin discussing tonight's topic
"Group work seems to be the new way to teach, particularly at primary level and now with the new Junior Cycle. Is it better/more efficient than good old-fashioned direct instruction?â
What are your thoughts?
#Edchatie In the main, group work is no more effective than explicit instruction and is certainly not more efficient. Waste of time unless strict parameters are adhered to, as demonstrated by research.
I find myself more so on the direct instruction side of the fence. Context is important too but if we talking about efficiency then I prefer to use DI. #edchatie
@Nccaie / @leronews developed @JCforTeachers#coding specification requires that the project for assessment is a group task. This reflects real world software development which is done in teams. Seems to be a bit of an outlier. Such projects are common at third level. #edchatie
Definitely pros and cons to groupwork. Pros - Excellent for differentiating for all abilities. Good for building interpersonal skills. Useful method of assessment. Cons - can be time consuming, also have to be on top of behaviour. #edchatie
Definitely. If one looks at the evidence DI is a very efficient method of getting students to learn. Very efficient. Group work less so, but I agree, context is key, e.g. we have to do group work in science when doing practical work. #edchatie
Eistear, MFL. From my own experience, I cannot say that my pupils perform any better as a result of group work. While it can be great fun, I am not convinced that it is a peerless methodology #edchatie
Group work needs clear planning, scaffolding, purpose and outcomes. Rolls need to be defined and understood to avoid one person being lumped with all the work/taking over. Groupwork for the sake of it just a waste of time (imo). #edchatie
I'd add that is discriminates against introverts, and those with poor social skills. A kid who is surviving being bullied by keeping their head down may find it daunting #edchatie
Also the best way to turn off students attention and minds. Doesn't allow for thinking or questioning. The very reason our students struggle when it comes to logical thinking. IMO #edchatie
#edchatie We should also be wary of throwing around the term 'Direct Instruction'. It may be better to refer to it as 'explicit instruction' - 'Direct Instruction' carries an awful lot more baggage.
I see your point but in life many jobs / situations require you to work in a group of some sort. Its a very valuable skill to have. Also for social aspect, may bring a student out of themselves of they are strong on topic. Moment to shine infront of other students. #edchatie
Definitely in a larger sense DI can be far quicker, but recently Iâve found that using group work with senior students allows them to synthesise and work through concepts and problems in far more depth and with greater understanding than had I simply imparted the info #edchatie
Kate Urell Group work is good for getting some students actively engaged but a strong character who is a messer can sway the group. Some groups will sink to the lowest level unless carefully managed.#edchatie
Group work isn't a new concept. We work that way a lot at primary level. New Junior Cert subjects are being taught using groups, collaborative and co-operative, more than before. Room for both approaches as direct instruction is also needed at times. #edchatie
Having said that I do employ it sometimes but try to keep the groups small to minimise the coasters who see the opportunity to seize kudos with effort. #edchatie
I worked with peers while at college and initially found it difficult as I hadn't practiced it while at school. I wasn't comfortable with it to begin but after a yr or so I found it very engaging and a nicer way to work. #edchatie
I deal with student who at times may have great social anxiety. Its a bit like putting someone who stutters on stage on the basis that the challenge will work it out.. This does not always work out well. #edchatie We should be inclusive and caring.
#edchatie I don't think anyone does group work for the sake of it. It is used if he activity and/or outcomes can be enhanced through its use. I definitely think small groups for presentations are better than individual. Technology like @GoogleForEdu#googleclassroom makes it easy
#edchatie Not a maths teacher but in #coding a team needs to decompose and abstract larger projects. Different members of team can work on different functions - example - a function that determines a number is odd/even - a function that returns random number
Iâve been trying to include more group work in my maths classes this year, usually about once a week with each group. Really helpful for investigative tasks as students learn problem solving techniques from each other! #edchatie
We're halfway through tonight's LIVE hour-long #edchatie discussion on "Group work seems to be the new way to teach, particularly at primary level and now with the new Junior Cycle. Is it better/more efficient than good old-fashioned direct instruction?â
I'd hope so but I think letting students work among themselves yields a greater reward sometimes when they can think for themselves and use what they've learned. To and fro questioning doesn't always allow for HOT. #edchatie
Thanks Conor... i want to try create tasks that will engage students and push their thinking and ability to problem solve in maths. My TYs are my guinea pigs at the mo! #edchatie
still catching up but for me:
Pros - when it works well it is 100% up there in terms of engaging students & developing a rich understanding of the topic. Con's - unless students are used to it & have clear guidelines to work within it can get very messy very quickly #edchatie
Group work in MFL depends on the attitude & behaviour of the pupils you have. It works in many cases but not in others. Didcipline & good classroom management are key. I can remember several classes where group work was next nigh to impossible. #edchatie
When students in our school were surveyed recently re T&L methods the majority said that they preferred DI. They want clear concise bullet points (preferably on PPT) so they can take notes. Group work, esp for CBAs, was not popular. #edchatie
Could you develop tasks that require constituent parts to be solved and assembled to arrive at the answer to a more complex problem. Actually a lot of coding problems boil down to mathematical modelling of real world problems. #edchatie
Yes thats what i want them to develop, problem solving skills! I've started with TYs this yr and one class a week they get a problem sheet with varying difficulty Qs to do as a group. This counts towards term assessments. Early days but kids enjoying it! #edchatie
Late to #edchatie. In terms of references to evidence for either case, we should be conscientious about what sort of evidence we give priority to and be aware of the limitations of different forms of evidence.
This article expands on the point: https://t.co/bs1gnTqstK#molfeasa
#edchatie I actually had a groupwork placemat activity all planned for my LC class on Friday but due to low numbers those left actually perferred to skip the activity in favour of DI & discussion from powerpoint. previously also had a different LC class ask if they could 1/2
That sounds great! If you have whiteboards to let them use I find them great for allowing students to brainstorm! Theyâre a lot less afraid to make mistakes when they can just wipe the attempts away and start again! #edchatie
That will be my aim but for the min just working on problem sheets relating to the topic we are doing. As more is covered, i hope to form more difficult tasks that will incorporate many topics. They love manipulating formulas as do I so we'll have lots of fun! #edchatie
My experience of working in a software house may have been an outlier, but programmers might work on sections of code for weeks on their own before putting it into the project. #edchatie
Groupwork may be more engaging & enjoyable, but is it more effective? I've heard of pupils who've spent full classes doing 'groupwork' on LC poetry & then go off to grinds to find out what the poems are actually about #edchatie
Disagree that letting students work amongst themselves yields greater rewards (I think the research clearly shows that. And HOT requires a deep knowledge base - would you not agree? #edchatie
In reply to
@AshDonohoe, @GermanTeachIRL, @johnmayo
Can be frustrating when you carry passengers in group tasks where a grade is at stake. Great preparation for real life though! Plus it is important you can show your teacher/lecturer/boss what you contributed to make sure you are credited correctly #edchatie
#edchatie opt out of a groupwork activity due to messers (their words) in the class they perceived wouldn't partake & produce work of a satisfactory standard & they perferred to just sit & take their own notes so the sucess of grpwork very much depends on the dynamic of the class
Darren from Virginia. Finally caught the chat in real time. Lots of good thinking here. I think group work can function like a dance. There are parts of work that need people to break away, but then others requiring the members come back to build up together #edchatie
Yes HOT requires a knowledge base first and foremost. From my experience students generate more questions when they can discuss it with their peers in a guided task. I can only go on what I've seen in my class. 10 mins of GW can be worth far more than 10 mins of DI. #edchatie
In reply to
@j_loughlin, @GermanTeachIRL, @johnmayo
Group work in MFL depends on the attitude & behaviour of the pupils you have. It works in many cases but not in others. Discipline & good classroom management are key. I can remember several classes where group work was next nigh to impossible. #edchatie
328 studies over 50 years show that direct instruction (structured guidance for teachers, teaching discrete skills before application, daily checks on learning, regular testing for mastery) has consistent, large positive effects on student achievement: https://t.co/GOt4aDBUWg ($)
The constant struggle!! Sorry, Laurence.
Maybe try request full text from author here? (https://t.co/alkAmGkTwi)
Or use a work around by using Sci-hub?
#edchatie
#edchatie throwing out another question .... DI has had 200 or so years to get it right, but has it? Would research studies in 50 years time still agree with that? I have very few memories of group work from my school days in exam subjects.
In reply to
@j_loughlin, @AshDonohoe, @GermanTeachIRL
In the interest of a democratic approach to the literature, here are about three thousand full text peer reviewed papers that say otherwise! https://t.co/XcKwGyrdnt#edchatie
In reply to
@j_loughlin, @AshDonohoe, @GermanTeachIRL, @johnmayo
#edchatie Whatever about the studies I'm sure many on here will agree that team competitions where the students are motivated are among the best example of student learning and development. Young Scientist / Enterprise / Video Projects / Robotics etc.
Good data and I don't disagree. I use DI every single day and it works brilliantly but I do find that GW works excellently too. My orginal post says.. pros and cons. Definitely a place for it in the classroom! #edchatie
In reply to
@j_loughlin, @GermanTeachIRL, @johnmayo
I think it worth mentioning that because one strategy works well, that does not mean that others are not worthy of implementation. #edchatie Often we use multiple methods to achieve one goal.
In reply to
@johnmayo, @j_loughlin, @AshDonohoe, @GermanTeachIRL
To be honest Liam, I think I can anticipate the debate from other sources which have raised procedural questions about this sort of accumulated analysis in a medical context.. #edchatie
Its group work, hence collective responsibility. In science if your name is on a paper with fabricated results you go down even if some one else faked the work. Thats the real world. #edchatie
Whether the data is there to say its effective or not we have our own observations of what we see in class everyday. Groupwork does work if used correctly and appropriately. #edchatie
In reply to
@j_loughlin, @GermanTeachIRL, @johnmayo
Personally I have always worked & planned together with colleagues in the various schools I have taught in, sharing resources, passing on strategies that worked or not! Teacher collaboration existed well before the new Junior Cycle came into being! #edchatie
We're into the famous final five minutes of tonight's #edchatie discussion - any last thoughts, solutions, ideas as regards groupwork versus direct instruction?
Transcript out tomorrow, so plenty of time for some extra tweets
It is gradually being implemented as part of curricular development. Has been used widely with younger students (4-12) for many years but only recently with older students (12-18) #edchatie
No of course not, I'm just commenting on a claim based on never mind the quality feel the width type reasoning. And my tweet was meant to be humorous. I apologise for being flippant. #edchatie
In reply to
@j_loughlin, @AshDonohoe, @GermanTeachIRL, @johnmayo
Câest la vie unfortunately. Itâs human nature I guess. Some teachers like to share, some donât. Some teachers like group work in their classrooms, some donât. Some teachers like this new Junior Cycle, some donât. #edchatie
becoming more the norm I think & even to the extent I've seen more & more classrooms rearrange tables etc to set up the room for more groupwork from day 1. #edchatie
I think that in regard to teaming, one must look at the task and determine the best instructional tool to support student growth socially and in learning the world is leaning hard on teams and it doesn't look like it'll change soon. #edchatie
Exactly. I know my contribution tonight has seemed very negative on group work, but I believe in a mix, deployed with an awareness of all the inherent risks involved in leveraging assessment from group performance #edchatie
In reply to
@AshDonohoe, @daire_lambert, @TheEdNarrative, @johnmayo, @j_loughlin, @GermanTeachIRL
Science analogy...Newtonian physics seems to work. Doesn't mean there isn't more to the story. Ignoring everything in favour of what we currently perceive to work (very effectively for our current purposes) can keep us from achieving many other things. #edchatie
In reply to
@daire_lambert, @TheEdNarrative, @johnmayo, @j_loughlin, @AshDonohoe, @GermanTeachIRL
