I don't think schools should be run like a business as children are not a commodity. There is already enough stress on teachers to get the best grades if it were a business that would only get worse. #sunchat
Today's #sunchat topic is deep! The business of a school (in less than 280 characters): To prepare future citizens. To support the growth of its students: intellectually, academically, socially, emotionally, civically, etc....
In public education, I think that people are often hesitant to say what they really think for fear of hurting others' feelings. But that can paralyze growth. That's one thing I think we could learn from a business model! #sunchat
Just jumping in, I'm not a fan of how std. testing assumes that all students will graduate HS and continue to college. So many kids find great opportunities and skill set matching in vocational areas, and we've been unfairly judging them through those assessments. #sunchat 1/2
I think that's a misconception about the concept of entrepreneurial leadership. The idea isn't students are commodities; students are the customers. #sunchat
I don't think schools should be run like a business as children are not a commodity. There is already enough stress on teachers to get the best grades if it were a business that would only get worse. #sunchat
There's a critical diff betw preparing Ss for the business of the real world and running schools like a biz. Schools ARE a biz... behind the scenes.,,where it should stay. But, yes, we need to prepare Ss for this world - most esp - info consumption.
#sunchat
2/2 And, how schools and teachers are assessed on this same assumption, that students will go to college and need to know how to find a topic sentence in a paragraph and such. That's the "business" of school that I'm not a fan of. #sunchat
In public education, I think that people are often hesitant to say what they really think for fear of hurting others' feelings. But that can paralyze growth. That's one thing I think we could learn from a business model! #sunchat
I love this topic bc it has different interpretations. My first reaction is negative, but is it more of “the business of a school” or “prepping kids for real world”? #sunchat
I think "run like a business" is the key to your comment, Elizabeth. What do we assume when we hear this phrase? It can mean so many different things. #sunchat
There's a critical diff betw preparing Ss for the business of the real world and running schools like a biz. Schools ARE a biz... behind the scenes.,,where it should stay. But, yes, we need to prepare Ss for this world - most esp - info consumption.
#sunchat
I think schools can learn a lot from business leadership but we need to make sure that senior leaders are from a teaching background and not a business background. I think they can learn from each other just not do each others jobs. #sunchat
Then, the question becomes - how do our teacher prep programs / admin programs and school systems as a whole encourage and grow these entrepreneurial attributes in their educator leaders? #sunchat
I think schools can learn a lot from business leadership but we need to make sure that senior leaders are from a teaching background and not a business background. I think they can learn from each other just not do each others jobs. #sunchat
YES! Using each other's theories, processes, procedures, etc. is just smart workmanship - use the best techniques to improve your own industry. But, as you said, not in the same way. Biz is not ed, ed is not biz. Borrowing from others means customizing for personal need.
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Not sure, Karl, but it seems so obvious to us who are spending time with the kids - and I would hate to suggest that policy makers step any deeper into my classroom... They are already too deep inside at times! @MrU_ishere#sunchat
I agree! Most business make money and employees have to step up or they are out. Schools can't run like this as they need all sorts of teachers. I think schools can learn from business but schools are not businesses #sunchat
Perhaps the given here is that the testing overload is part of the negative side of the business model. But can we take something from results-driven assessment, “fail forward”, etc that can be useful? #sunchat
This sparked another thought for me - often, businesses have career paths. If a teacher doesn't want to go into leadership, but stay in the classroom, how are they rewarded for increased learning/job performance? #sunchat
Yes! Entrepreneurial attributes are key to running a school! But the "business" side may be the roadblock to allow that to happen. Education needs to foster the idea of entrpreneurialism (did I just make up a word?). So important! #sunchat
I think there are some aspects of how businesses are run that should be shared with schools. For example some businesses do a great job taking care of their employees. I do not think that the public system does enough for the teachers #sunchat
I would argue that school leadership is business leadership. The key is taking the appropriate philosophies of various leadership models to ensure a school system is managed equitably and for the purpose of supporting student growth holistically. #sunchat
Yes. We can use pretty much anything to help us improve and grow, even if it is not necessarily the best measure. Testing DOES give us some good info. It's how it is used and how much we test that tends to cause issues... #sunchat
Schools need to have policies & procedures to streamline and be more efficient like businesses, however our business should always be what’s best for students and our plans must be flexible and adaptable to all. #sunchat
I think it is from #PD personally. How do we learn to lead in whatever job we are doing? Personally I read a lot and follow and talk to experts they don't have to do my job though #sunchat
... or at least knows how to listen to others. There is a big difference between running a classroom and running a school. A School/District is run like a business, but teaching kids cannot be run on a for-profit business model. #sunchat
The business model idea applies to Ts as well. I love when Ts want to have the most impact, the best lessons, the best croom- if you’re working that hard, your Ss will benefit! #sunchat
Talked about this with a colleague the other day. Regardless of how well I do my job, as long as I am "effective", there is no additional money, no path to "promotion", as in business. Incentive? The kids who will be in my class next year. That has to be our reward. #sunchat
The whole concept of all of us seeking out avenues (such as #sunchat) for our own professional growth is entrepreneurial in a way. Susan, brings up a great question - how do we foster the idea of entrpreneurialism as teacher leaders in our buildings?
Yes! Entrepreneurial attributes are key to running a school! But the "business" side may be the roadblock to allow that to happen. Education needs to foster the idea of entrpreneurialism (did I just make up a word?). So important! #sunchat
Beer swiggin’ Lizzie stuck to her scripted DNA response to an obviously planted supporter’s Native American question.
Get used to it.
Two years of head bobbing and tremulous “I hate Trump so I want to be your President” and other campaign blather.
#Sunchat
Trying to run schools like a business is what got us where we are now; looking at numbers rather than people . School shouldn’t be like an assembly line where we’re focused on outdated ideas of what a graduate should look like.#sunchat
I agree it is all about management but I feel as soon as we start talking business leadership within schools the assumption is the expertise comes from business rather than schools. #sunchat
Yes, but when Ts share with each other to make sure everyone is doing their best, Ss benefit even more. I worked in schools where there was a competetive atmosphere among Ts (no sharing of resources in an attempt to shine) & this wasn't beneficial for Ss
#sunchat
Why not? Aren't our students the customers? They're not the product. Knowledge is. The idea of entrepreneurial leadership isn't rooted in assembly lines (unlike many schools) - it is about innovation and putting the customer first. #sunchat
... or at least knows how to listen to others. There is a big difference between running a classroom and running a school. A School/District is run like a business, but teaching kids cannot be run on a for-profit business model. #sunchat
True. And I don't think Ts are in it for the $$$. But I do think it affects T retention, because the rewards are mostly internal rather than external. Is that good? Not sure. But it's a disconnect from other places where people can find work (and better compensation) #sunchat
This is where we need to get creative. Students are fantastic reward and we love them, but I would love to see other benefits put into place so that teachers feel validated and appreciated #sunchat
In reply to
@susankotch, @Ms_A_Yeh, @tiffanytruitt
I don’t mean to demean that and agree. My point was that I want Ts working hard and to have a “be the best” mentality. Doesn’t mean you isolate yourself, just means that you’re pushing yourself. #sunchat
Take a look at the top characteristics associated with entrepreneurial leadership. Couldn't our schools benefit from this mindset? #sunchathttps://t.co/CpI3Cgrzkv
To further complicate the issue, the outcomes of quality teaching are often not quantifiable immediately. A student makes connections over her or his entire lifetime. #sunchat
YES YES and YES again!
Most esp in an age when our profession gets beat down regularly. We must tell the story of our students and teachers, and oh btw, admins, too! We've got HUGE successes no one knows about. @thecateyeprsd started for that purpose. They weave a story. #sunchat
Interesting! I have only ever worked in one private school where the students knew they were the customers and I did not like what I saw. They had total rule and not upsetting the students was aim. There has to be a different way... #sunchat
I also don't understand how we don't encourage our arts students - so many fields require creativity, but we don't provide that business training (allow that creativity) in their younger years. And we need truck drivers! And plumbers!... #sunchat
This sparked another thought for me - often, businesses have career paths. If a teacher doesn't want to go into leadership, but stay in the classroom, how are they rewarded for increased learning/job performance? #sunchat
Compensation is important, but it’s also simply working in an atmosphere where you feel legit respected and appreciated for the work you do and the impact you have. #sunchat
I agree. If I am noticeably more skilled, have achieved a Mastery Instructional level, can move academic mountains consistently, don't I deserve a monetary bonus. Or if a school dist wants my skills, shouldn't I start at a HIGHER step than I leave? #sunchat
In reply to
@edlearner5, @susankotch, @Ms_A_Yeh, @tiffanytruitt
#Truth! Connections are forever being made, and interests arise later... we need to remember this in our classrooms. We shouldn't be pigeonholing learning for those kids who will seek something different. We are failing our customer if we do that. #sunchat
To further complicate the issue, the outcomes of quality teaching are often not quantifiable immediately. A student makes connections over her or his entire lifetime. #sunchat
You certainly bring up an interesting point and one to ponder for sure. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said there has to be a different way. What we are doing now isn't working. I think EDU, unlike many businesses, are not open to change. #sunchat
I actually don’t have a problem with testing everyone the same way, but I feel the results are being analyzed/used the wrong way.
If we were to give standardized tests at the beginning and end of the year and analyzed results individually, we’d get much more value IMO #sunchat
In reply to
@TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
I get that. And I do want them to always do and be their best. But not necessarily be THE best. That's where the competition can get in the way and I think team players make stronger Ts.
#sunchat
I agree. If I am noticeably more skilled, have achieved a Mastery Instructional level, can move academic mountains consistently, don't I deserve a monetary bonus. Or if a school dist wants my skills, shouldn't I start at a HIGHER step than I leave? #sunchat
In reply to
@edlearner5, @susankotch, @Ms_A_Yeh, @tiffanytruitt
I somewhat agree...yes, it is all important. But is it enough? I can't blame someone who loves teaching but chooses another profession because they need to make more to support their family or achieve their goals. It robs our profession of great educators. #sunchat
Interesting. I was looking at it from a business branding POV. Yes, I agree, we can't run schools like a business on the front end. But behind the scenes, there are best biz practices that need to be in place. One we should def borrow is that idea of biz branding. #sunchat
In reply to
@Elizabethutch, @HalcottMStech, @thecateyeprsd
I heard the term "my forever school" for the first time this year by one of our new teachers. It really struck me. How do we build that sense of home for our staff? #sunchat#FutureChatTopic
Compensation is important, but it’s also simply working in an atmosphere where you feel legit respected and appreciated for the work you do and the impact you have. #sunchat
I actually don’t have a problem with testing everyone the same way, but I feel the results are being analyzed/used the wrong way.
If we were to give standardized tests at the beginning and end of the year and analyzed results individually, we’d get much more value IMO #sunchat
In reply to
@TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
I don't think that is down to bad business skills I think it is time. Schools need to employ someone else to market their schools. That's what business do. Not possible though as there is no money. #sunchat
In reply to
@HalcottMStech, @MrU_ishere, @thecateyeprsd
As is it now, I get my standardized scores, which affect my overall evaluation, after my students are halfway through their next year of school with another teacher. Doesn't help me in the slightest. Std Tests aren't to help teachers. They are for business. #sunchat
In reply to
@chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
I agree 100% with this! Sometimes I think we get so stuck on the fact that edu and business are different that we don't take the opportunity to learn from each other. #sunchat
In reply to
@MrU_ishere, @Elizabethutch, @HalcottMStech, @thecateyeprsd
I agree w/you, there is a before- and after-assessment where I can see growth. I like NWEA MAPS for that reason. But, on PARCC, for ex, my SPED Ss take a 6th gr level test when they are functioning on 4th grade. That doesn't test their growth. That tests their gr level
#sunchat
In reply to
@chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @Sunchat
I think if every school had more money (haha, yes I know) they could employ someone to market them but it just is not going to happen and who has the time in a busy school? #sunchat
In reply to
@Ms_A_Yeh, @MrU_ishere, @HalcottMStech, @thecateyeprsd
Our district has hired a PR person. I suppose it’s all about priorities. If it needs done, resources will be allocated for it. If not it’s up to the available workforce to promote and publicize. #sunchat
In reply to
@Elizabethutch, @MrU_ishere, @thecateyeprsd
the students are not my customers ... I am their teacher not a sales person. My job is to give them information ... information they may not want. There are similarities between teacher and sales person, but a teacher should not be judged on the number of "sales" #sunchat
Yep. In class pre and post tests are diff, but that’s not what the state wants. This is what state Ed can’t figure out- judging Ss and Ts on the same test is insane. #sunchat
In reply to
@susankotch, @chris_kittredge, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
Tweeting with a common district hashtag is one easy way to allow Ts to promote the magic happening in classrooms throughout the district at no expense. #sunchat
In reply to
@Elizabethutch, @Ms_A_Yeh, @MrU_ishere, @thecateyeprsd
Yes. Teachers as employees are a back-of-the-house business process. That's diff from teachers' function in the classroom. Two different approaches to the same component.
#sunchat
I feel like we’re in the process of changing how we educate and it’s about time. The world changed but schools didn’t. I’m excited about the future because I know that passionate people don’t give up and can take failures in stride along the way. #sunchat
NYC schools have Parent Coordinators to work with principals in creating welcoming schools. Part of that is improved and transparent communication. #sunchat
In reply to
@Elizabethutch, @HalcottMStech, @MrU_ishere, @thecateyeprsd
In this scenario, could an 8th grade std. ELA pre/post test show the growth of a student at a 3rd grade reading level advance to a 5th grade reading level? That's significant improvement... #sunchat
In reply to
@chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
Hi #sunchat! I’m seeing real benefits of giving students chances to make calculated risks and more opportunities to practice communication. In doing so, their self-confidence increases and it’s a circular process: more risks, more communication, more confidence. #unlimitedteacher
If by "sales" you mean the passing of assessments. Yes, how we quantify the success of our schools has been a real issue since NCLB. I don't see a problem with quantifying it in terms of graduation rates, job placements...I do believe that is my job. #sunchat
We use a school hashtag and Twitter handle. We allow the school community (mostly our internal community) to build that story. I tweet pics of my Ss at work and play each week. Parents and our township should see what they get for their $$$.
#sunchat
In reply to
@HalcottMStech, @Elizabethutch, @thecateyeprsd
And yet, you were all given APGAR at the same time after birth. (Which isn't to say the ESSA testing model is ideal, but rather to offer there are examples where we're comfortable with same time, same way testing.) #SunChat
In reply to
@MrU_ishere, @TheKevinMCline, @Sunchat
Agree... and Ss who do well on tests are not always the ones who do well in life. I have a student who struggles with academics, but he already has a very lucrative online business.
#sunchat
I think this is so important. It helps to remind the wider community about how schools have moved on. Getting rid of the negativity and promoting the positives. #sunchat
In reply to
@MrU_ishere, @HalcottMStech, @thecateyeprsd
That's my point, Susan. Our std tests aren't doing a good enough job to warrant them inundating our ed system. If my student is at a 2nd grade reading level at the beginning of 8th grade, typical normed-std tests won't help us. #sunchat
In reply to
@susankotch, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
At birth, we are all starting off with that baseline. With a low APGAR, you are retested to see growth. My son was retested 3 times the day he was born. It showed HIS growth that day... as it should. The doctor wasn't pinged for it because he wasn't a 10. #sunchat
In reply to
@JennBinis, @MrU_ishere, @TheKevinMCline, @Sunchat
It is so vital to this conversation to explain what Entrepreneurial Leadership is. It's innovation, failing forward, shared decision making....It is not (what many schools already do) - mindless assembly line routines. It's about being open to shaking up our schools 1/2 #sunchat
And obviously didn't help at any point, since I'm assuming the student tested below level for many years & doesn't seem to have received the support s/he needsed
#sunchat
In reply to
@ThatMathLady, @susankotch, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
The bottom line is our job is to facilitate student growth and nurture the whole child, assessments are not measuring this. So how can we demonstrate our effectiveness as an educational community w/o profits and knowing standardized tests don’t measure this? #sunchat
This is EXACTLY what I mean when I say they are using the results in the wrong way.
Pre/post testing shows how Ss improve throughout the year and the schools that consistently show the most improvement should be benchmarked to help everyone enhance improvement. #sunchat
In reply to
@susankotch, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
Totally agree! I'm a fan of the NWEA MAP scores. Shows growth through the year, I see immediate results, much like a business exec would get to see how many widgets were made so adjustments could be made to the assembly line. ;) #sunchat
In reply to
@ThatMathLady, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
When used inappropriately, by rating teachers for example (value-added testing is not research based) it does damage good teaching. Some standardized testing is OK. However, the focus must change to classroom assessment practice to improve learning AND teaching. #sunchat
In reply to
@carlameyrink, @susankotch, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
To me, assume the best intention, ask questions out of true interest, chat and smile, check in to ask about new ideas and offer support. The same for all people on campus, regardless of age of job. (And really, just all people, everywhere.) #sunchat
Our district is connecting the schools to the community and businesses and giving students real work experience and opportunities. Our new HS is 3 days of classes and 2 on projects and working in the community. #sunchat
I think we are at the mercy of an online discussion 😂 I am estatic at growth and mos def see that as improvement! My meaning was can edu be content with improvement? #sunchat
In reply to
@MrU_ishere, @chris_kittredge, @Sunchat
I agree completely. There is so much to be learnt especially as many of our senior leaders have never left school and have never worked outside schools. They need to broaden their outlook and horizons and getting help from the business world is a perfect solution. #sunchat
We also have a group of educators who run and participate in a monthly chat. This has been awesome bc admin, parents, and Ts follow this and learn on their own time. #sunchat
In reply to
@PMcPeake1, @MrU_ishere, @Elizabethutch, @thecateyeprsd
I agree, MAP tests are better for that reason. But I would still caution us when analyzing MAP scores out of context. Students' scores can be impacted by a multitude of extraneous factors. Std. testing is one indicator of growth, not a reflection of growth. #sunchat
In reply to
@susankotch, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
The NWEA results are immediate to the test but not to instruction. Therefore the only type of assessment that can respond quickly to miscues in learning is classroom formation assessment. NWEA is NOT a formative assessment. #sunchat
In reply to
@susankotch, @ThatMathLady, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
Not sure if it is perfect, but, at least, it's trying something new. I don't know there is one right, sure answer to fixing public education...but we HAVE to, if we love children and our jobs, be open to new ideas and not afraid of smarter risks #sunchat
I agree completely. There is so much to be learnt especially as many of our senior leaders have never left school and have never worked outside schools. They need to broaden their outlook and horizons and getting help from the business world is a perfect solution. #sunchat
Some Ss focus entirely on jumping through school hoops to be successful. In our school when we gave 12th grade science Ss choice in what they learned & how they would show mastery, it was our high achievers who struggled the most, saying, "just tell me what to do."
#sunchat
In reply to
@PMcPeake1, @tiffanytruitt, @DennisDill
Agree - but they are tool for a teacher to use to see growth as well as specific areas that need revisiting. The State std tests do not do that for me. #sunchat
In reply to
@ThatMathLady, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @MrU_ishere, @Sunchat
Agreed, but they show long-term growth as they're are done on a continuum. My 4th-grade functioning 6th grader shows growth...based on his starting point, not the baseline for an avg 6th grader, like PARCC. They also break down weak areas that drive my instruction. #sunchat
In reply to
@MrDataGuy, @susankotch, @ThatMathLady, @chris_kittredge, @TheKevinMCline, @Sunchat
Our school offers Academy Interns, a 90 hour work experience, career research paper and a presentation. Great program! Our second high school in the district has been open for 5/6 years and does amazing things with business-student connections! #sunchat@sagecreekgenius
Right on Tiffany. If we look at what a true PLC model is you have just nailed it. Lets throw classroom assessment practice to inform the success of all you have said and this is a great recipe for change #sunchat
