#gtchat Archive
Global #gtchat Powered by TAGT is a weekly chat on Twitter that takes place on Thursdays at 8 p.m. ET/7 p.m. CT and 5 p.m. PT in the U.S. For one hour, parents, educators, advocates and experts in the field of gifted and talented gather to share resources, links, authentic life experiences and insights about gifted issues.
Tuesday May 10, 2016
For the next hour I’ll be joining others at ( ) ~ please pardon the heavy stream or better yet; join us!
Welcome to Global and Chat Powered by the Texas Association for the Gifted & Talented
Our topic today is “Perfectionism” w/guest Lisa Van Gemert
Before we begin, please tell us where you’re from and introduce yourself!
I’m Lisa Conrad ~ moderator, advocate, presenter, blogger & mother of 2 gifted young adults from Pittsburgh, PA
Good evening educators and learners, Cait from Long Beach (Long Island), NY, Gifted & Talented / Enrichment Specialist Teacher
TY for addressing this imprtnt topic tn-currently wrking on private creative wrk involving perfectionism, very passionate about it
As a reminder, we use a Q1/Q2 format for questions & A1/A2 for answers during
I'm Lisa Van Gemert (the other Lisa!) ~ educator, mom, speaker, writer, and on and on... from Arlington, TX.
Hi, Lisa! Thanks for being our guest & advisor, too!
If joining via Twitter, remember to add the hashtag to each tweet
Gail Post from Gifted Challenges - psychologist, blogger, mom of two college kids from outside Philly.
A1) Perfectionism is the setting of unreasonably high expectations combined with a lack of self-love.
Hi all, I look forward to the conversation this evening - Kathryn
Hi all! Marianne here. SENG PAC. pediatrician. homeschooler. blogger. I need to lurk. Perfectionism SUCH an essential topic!
a1) that's tough. Healthy or over-done?
A1) Perfectionism is not being able to judge the reasonableness of personal expectations.
I'm Kelly. Classroom teacher, writer, blogger & homeschooling mama to a 2e DS 10
a1) healthy perfectionism is working hard to do a good job. But unhealthy perfectionism is not knowing when enough is enough
A1 Perfectionism is not wanting to participate in answering the first question b/c I believe I don't have the perfect definition ...
Perfectionism is an under-addressed issue plaguing our schools, and often is perpetuated unintentionally by those who love the S
A1: The root of perfectionism is FEAR.
Excited for tonight's ! 2nd grade teacher, KS
A1) Perfectionism also includes an unhealthy concern for others’ opinions of one’s work.
A1 consistent, persistent drive to excel, and meet internalized, unrealistically high expectations
A1) Perfectionists also typically overgeneralize failure, seeing it as a sign of catastrophic, systemic personal failure.
A1) Perfectionism is allowing yourself to be defined by others’ expectations.
A1) perfectionism includes the lack of ability to set a goal, reach the goal and be satisfied with the product.
Not just others' opinions, but unhealthy is also finding your own work never good enough for yourself!
Agreed. I'm sharing different facets, and that's one - it's got its own acronym in the literature!
A1. Perfectionism is a "self-directed" unattainable expectation of performance (yet often not expected of others).
A1) Perfectionists are often hyper-aware of how things could be & think that means that is how they must be.
Always think of as our own too-high expectations. Is the pressure actually from the outside? https://t.co/ETFEJroTLM
A1) Perfectionism is allowing yourself to be defined by others’ expectations.
A1. Perfectionism can be the frustrating self-defeating state of always moving the goal post further away.
. The research is showing that parental expectation & parenting style play a strong role.
A2) Adelson & Wilson (teacher/researchers) described different types we see in schools in their book “Letting Go of Perfect.”
A1) Perfectionism is fear disguised as "trying to do your best"
A2. My idea of types of perfectionism: Healthy & unhealthy. Self-directed vs. pressure from without.
A2 external vs. internal ... Is it an outside force or an internal drive? The latter? INTENSE ...
A2) absolutely! Some are perfectionistic in all, some are just perfectionistic in "weak" areas.
A2) Yes; high expectations lead to anxious kids or kids who simply feel their best isn’t good enough
A2) Some perfectionists are risk-avoiders, while others are fixated on redoing work until it’s “perfect.”
A2)Perfectionism is multidimensional. Recent rsrch, Stoeber (2015) estblshd self-prescribed, socially-prescribed & other-oriented
and yes, internal vs. external (enforced)
A2) Some gifted kids can rein in striving to always be the best and some can’t.
A2 Distinctions between "healthy" and "unhealthy" perf. confuses the construct - perf. is never healthy (striving for excellence is)
A2) I'm highly concerned with socially-prescribed and the maladaptive behavior shown by many students, which inhibits growth
interesting. Not always tho? Maybe it can be a drive to please parents, say divorced ones, and not parental pressure?
Those divisions are in a lot of the literature (SOP-self-imposed, SPP-socially prescribed, and OPP other prescribed)
A2 motivation behind perfectionism will differ between Ss making it imperative that relationships are built and needs are recognized
A2) seems like no matter what type of perfectionist, it's rooted in anxiety.
Sure - motivation towards perfectionism is definitely multi-faceted; some parents see kids as avatars.
A2. Striving for best is healthy if "best" is constrained & well-defined. Saying "do your best" can be impossible & excruciating.
https://t.co/08FMUF5Q4Q
A2. Striving for best is healthy if "best" is constrained & well-defined. Saying "do your best" can be impossible & excruciating.
I'm not sure. Connection to anxiety is often true of maladaptive, but sometimes its seeking for excellence gone awry.
perfectionism can be accompanied by anxiety and confusion and mislabeling-I know I'm smart but i can't do it perfectly?
Socially derived expectations and lack of inner connection to the goodness that already is - it's certainly ego-based
Just popping into the chat. Long day - and forgot it was Tuesday. Interesting topic! I’m a GT Specialist in NW Houston.
why try is I can't do it right?! Unreasonable expectations and frustration and questioning self worth
A2 Perfectionism never healthy for gifted OR not gifted kids
Important point -perfectionism is not restricted to the gifted, just often more intense & common in Giftedland.
A2) In GT kids, we often see the overachiever – 100% is passing, not perfect, to them.
A2) You can be a perfectionist in some areas but not others, too, so a kid can be chaos at home & meticulous at school.
A3) Perfectionists can underachieve when they fail to turn in work because it’s not at the level they wanted/expected/demanded.
A3) A relationship that feeds on itself; inability to complete work deemed unworthy.
A3) gives up trying, procrastinates, avoids, won't complete work unless it's perfect
A3) Paralyzed perfectionism: Ss would rather not engage than fail. This is what leads to underachievement.
A3) Perfectionism can lead to hopelessness which is a straight ticket to underachievement - "I'll NEVER get it right."
A3. perfectionism & underachievement related. As is procrastination - used as a useful excuse of why something less than 100%.
dages self worth-why try if I can't do it perfect-sometimes can't do what she's able to design in her mind
A3)Easier to convince yourself you can do more if you didn't try hard. Fear your best will be disappointing. https://t.co/kSOi8OL567
It's ironic, right? The seeking of uber control almost always leads to a lack of a central locus of control.
A3) Setting expectations so high they are unachievable
I’ve definitely seen this. Teachers need to know that this can be an issue. Are there telltale signs?
Sometimes on purpose! RT A3) Setting expectations so high they are unachievable
Kindda like being a mother sometimes. ;)
Educational methodology is a euphuism for stripping kids' differences and cramming them into the same mold.
Telltale signs of which thing? Sorry - we're fast and furious in here tonight!!!
like a dark pit made of bad habits p, difficult to unlearn. Loss of time, opportunities, talents.
A3) Underachievement is another word for misalignment & perfectionism is misalignment of goals with reality/desirability.
I wonder if you inherent it, the thinking patterns.
We’re already half way through our chat! Thanks for all the great sharing.
My own perfectionism rears its head during chats when random people use the hashtag. I think, "How dare you mess up our chat?"
A3 they don't try when it doesnt come easily, so they externalize the underachievement instead of internalizing the failed attempt.
A3 So for those of us in the trenches, either in our classrooms or at home, we help strengthen wings ... https://t.co/3Pl3WrvFhv
Yes, and the inappropriate laying of blame makes the whole thing even more of a tangled mess.
A4) Consequences: stress, decreased social acceptance, workaholicism, neglect of other interests
a4) Failure to complete, to turn anything in at all!
A4) Perfectionism can bring ‘living a full life’ to a halt; narrowing one’s focus to ‘not seeing forest for the trees’
Definitely - anxiety for the child AND the parents AND the teachers!
A4 Anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, obsessive thinking, loss of pleasure, underachievement, somatic complaints, etc.
A4) More Consequences: fear, underachievement, anxiety, limited social interaction, limited risk taking
A4) failure to take risks for fear of being wrong or getting a bad grade, not turning in assignments bc they aren't perfect
RT A4) ..to ‘not seeing forest for the trees’ <-- hey, that's me!
A4) Fear of failure supercedes task completion when we yield to perfectionism.
A4) One consequence could be a feeling of self-loathing that goes unnoticed in schools because of the child's achievements.
RT A4) Fear of failure supercedes task completion when we yield to perfectionism.
That is a really insightful observation.
A4) Yet More Consequences: rigidity, eating disorders, self-harm, unhealthy dependence on external evaluation/acceptance.
If you didn't achieve your goals, or make your dreams come true, I wonder if that feels debilitating to a perfectionist.
https://t.co/3LhS7G4q63
A4) One consequence could be a feeling of self-loathing that goes unnoticed in schools because of the child's achievements.
What to Do When Good Enough Isn't Good Enough: Real Deal on Perfectionism: Guide for Kids (Amazon) https://t.co/zkt22TKVG5
procrastination is a product of perfectionism. Starts with fear > perfectionism > procrastination.
Probably debilitating and demoralizing and leads to even more risk avoidance later.
A4 perfectionist clients I see have lost ability to enjoy their lives, except when achieving - so sad!
A4: high-performing learning environments often mean high-pressure as well with all the accompanying problems.
Not all perfectionism leads to negative results. For some the sequence is ?> perfectionism > result.
RT Not all perfectionism leads to negative results. For some the sequence is ?> perfectionism > result.
But what is the? Here. How do we get it? How do we get healthy perfectionism?
that would be HEALTHY perfectionism. Knowing when enough is enough, knowing when to press on.
A4) Also: isolation. Not always easy to hang around with. Others may feel pressure to perform or acquiesce. https://t.co/HTbVJtjq12
A5) Many psychologists (not all) believe that perfectionism can be either adaptive or maladaptive.
A5) healthy perf. is when you get to results, and it's good enough. And you can move ON. Not balling up your work and throwing it...
A5) Healthy perfectionists want to do a good job, but not let it take over their life.
A5) The difference often has to do with the way the child copes with it. Turns out evasion is really problematic.
A5: healthy perfectionism? I'd say that consists of sticking to a goal but not limiting yourself to that standard
Agreed RT A5: healthy perfectionism? I'd say that consists of sticking to a goal but not limiting yourself to that standard
A5: Also healthy perfectionism I think has to be a bit adaptive. Perfection is situational.
A5) Unhealthy perfectionism begins to affect many facets of one’s life beyond the task at hand.
A5) In healthy perfectionism, the person doesn’t become overly self-critical. They remain hopeful & resilient.
A5: I respectfully disagree with those in the field that use the term perfectionism in a positive way.
RT A5: I respectfully disagree with those in the field that use the term perfectionism in a positive way. <-- Why?
Do you have a word in mind besides adaptive perfectionism? I'd love one!
The best part of chats, all perspectives are considered! https://t.co/NHuuUYc2Et
A5: I respectfully disagree with those in the field that use the term perfectionism in a positive way.
But doesn't healthy perfectionism? Progress shouldn't be isolated. https://t.co/If2us6BFBb
A5) Unhealthy perfectionism begins to affect many facets of one’s life beyond the task at hand.
Hi! parent dropping in late... What about perfectionism and imposter syndrome? Not "perfect" therefore I shouldn't/can't do it
A5) In unhealthy perfectionism, the person is consumed with failure & sees perceives him/herself as worthless.
A5) we support FAILure First Attempt In Learning across the whole school day. Supported failure helps
A3 I have read that fear of failure will lead some perfectionists to procrastinate or underachieve.
Striving for excellence (?) RT Do you have a word in mind besides adaptive perfectionism? I'd love one!
Agee with you! RT A5: I respectfully disagree with those in the field that use the term perfectionism in a positive way.
Was just going to suggest trying to find another term. "Perfect" is subjective or arguably non-existent in nature.
. I don't see anything that we do as completely isolated from other acts. Otherwise why are we doing it?
Chiming in. Because 'healthy perfectionism' is not perfectionism. It's striving for excellence.
Like "gifted" itself, "perfectionism" is a loaded/tricky/ambiguous word.
Okay, seriously, the tornado sirens just started going off here at my house.
interesting... What do you mean exactly in the context of perfectionism?
A6) Hard to hear, but research shows that parenting has a huge influence. Avoiding authoritarian parenting is key.
A5 when they can be happy with their personal best even if it's not the overall best
Yikes! We can take it from here if you need to go!
A5 Perfectionism is an "ism" - psychologically problematic. Striving for perfection is a behavior - not problematic
A6: Teach students how to deal with and appreciate complexity. Enjoy taking on the challenge.
A6) Let the child set his/her own goals, learn appropriate goal disengagement, teach good self-talk.
Turning in work that U thought was perfect but it wasn’t after a teacher graded it is just as harmful to as no attempt to do it. BTW
A6) Parents can serve as role models for their children; don’t insist on everything being absolutely perfect.
You've Gotta Know When to Fold 'Em: Goal Disengagement/Systemic Inflammation in Adolescence (Abstract) https://t.co/5LYHlzH3ko
We aren't learning to write so that we can fit our letters perfectly within the lines. That's impt to communicate to Ss
A5) Was Steve Jobs unhappy for becoming successful for being a patient perfectionist? All I have to judge that on is the movie. 😕
Agree - for our children and ourselves. If kids are sensitive to it, we have to avoid even the flippant use of the word
if you have a chance to see or please don't miss it - we loved it
Oooh, patient perfectionist....hmmmm
when something clicks, it's "I was so stupid not to get that before!"
Are you safe? Concerned...
Ian and I will be doing it again this year!
I think we should focus on the emotional foundations of this thing rather than isolated habits.
A5) "Online-ization" of S social lives is promoting/increasing unhealthy perfectionism in Gifted S's, why MSUGT promotes community
Yes, but dog is singing the song of his people!!!! RT Are you safe? Concerned...
true enough. So schools that focus on that are unintentionally promoting perfectionism?
Yet the habits reflect it.RT I think we should focus on the emotional foundations of this thing rather than isolated habits.
A3 - I wonder if gtkids display perfectionism bc it prevents them fr moving onto challenging work, so underachieving in risk-taking
Can you say more about teaching appropriate goal disengagement? https://t.co/qfb8Lu9JFN
A6) Let the child set his/her own goals, learn appropriate goal disengagement, teach good self-talk.
Attending to main cause will have positive reverberations across a persons life. Not just productivity.
A6) Set time limits on work. It’s never done, it’s just due. Move on…Don’t let kids anguish over work.
meaning it took him a long time to be satisfied. He waited to release products that were worth the wait.
We create it in the culture.Kids see teachers . Kids r learners teachers r .We have days.
Yes. It's learning how to recognize an inappropriate one RT Can you say more about teaching appropriate goal disengagement?
A4 - stunted growth in creativity, innovation, confidence, flexibility, etc
A6) make mistakes on purpose and use them as a lesson for Ss. They need to see we can learn from mistakes
. no, I actually think handwriting is an important discipline that should be emphasized more. But it's not the goal.
A6) Teachers can also consider task requirements and make modifications when necessary.
A6) Celebrate the child's inner essence, not overemphasizing achievements-child will rise w/o attachment to label of "perfect"
That's an important distinction to make. Student wasn't stupid for missing solution before. https://t.co/GY2gkQktVs
when something clicks, it's "I was so stupid not to get that before!"
A6 Many perfectionistic kids need therapy, cognitive/behavioral strategies to challenge negative thoughts
A6 Work w/children to ensure their effort-meter matches their importance meter. Sometimes perfectionists don't get this balance.
I would think that hyper-attentive would encompass a new word for perfectionist too.
Great tonight! Unfortunately I got to bounce, can't wait to read what else is discussed, and continue to build my with you guys
Lost power! In dark closet with golden retriever! Sorry for imperfect chat!
A6 Also need to address insidious role of perfectionism in creative arts - help kids excel without excessive pressure
Modeling is always excellent! What is a failure day?
A6) give assignments a #1-5. 1 is not important 5 is important. Spend more time and effort on higher # projects than lower #
A6) Celebrate learning/skill application over scores/completion to teach dimensions of accomplishment over unhealthy perfectionism
A6) focusing on, modelling and valuing ideas vs products, flexible thinking, iterating. Move away from assessing a 'final product'
perfectionism is a dead end!
We’re nearing the end of our chat today … final thoughts?
Stay safe! RT Lost power! In dark closet with golden retriever! Sorry for imperfect chat!
A6) Adults can look within themselves and reflect on their own unfinished dreams and how they could be affecting the child
This will be archived at and the link will be shared via later today
A6) I highly suggest reading the work of
Thank you to our guest, Lisa Van Gemert for joining us today!
Thanks to the extraordinary staff at for their awesome support; we couldn’t do it without them!
Thanks to the Advisory Board:
Parents & teachets can avoid only rewarding high grades. Sometimes we act like lowest grade is a different color ink!
Thanks to Lisa and Lisa ! And of course, TAGT, for all you all do for
Before you go … build your Personal Learning Network and follow those whose comments you liked!
Thanks to both Lisas! Great chat!
Our next chat will be Tues May 17th at 8E/7C/6M/5P (US)/Wed 18th May at 1AM (UK)/12.00 NZST/10.00 AEST
