#4thchat Archive
#4thchat is a hashtag for teachers or anyone to talk about educational issues relating to 4th grade. Using #4thchat will create a network of 4th grade teachers or teachers working with 9-10 year olds across the world. We welcome anyone who 1. teaches 4th grade 2 .Works with 4th grade students and or 4th grade teachers 3. Likes 4th grade teachers (Groupies are encouraged).
Monday December 14, 2015
Hello tweeps. Glad to be back and connecting with all of you tonight.
Paula here from New Orleans, ready to chat about Math Fact Fluency: What is it? What does it Mean?
Howdy, Paula! Happy to join you for tonight!
Hi Scott. Yes, doing well. Four days till Christmas break.
Hi friends! Nancy here from Mass ready to with this gr8 group of Educators! :)
Scott from Iowa. Excited for
Hi Jenn! Nice to be here with my “tribe” for .
Hey, Scott! Love the hashtag!!
Hi Nate. Glad to “see” you in the house of .
Hi Scott! Excited to spend the hour with you
Hello! Hallie in MO. Almost my kids' bedtime, but will join while I can!
No place I’d rather be on Monday nights than with my :)
Hi Hallie. Glad you can join us for .
Glad you are here, Amy! How was your Monday?
Hi Hallie! Please join in when you can - but don’t rush the bedtime - those days go sooooo quickly!
Hi Amy! How are you doing?
Hello…it's Heidi from “weird weather TN” ! Great topic tonight! Can’t wait to learn!
Whoops, those hashtags really mean something! https://t.co/iiLgZRDMKM
Hello 4thchat friends. I am very curious what others think about this topic. Colleen from Syracuse here.
Question 1 of tonight’s coming up.
Hi, NATE!! Did your Monday go well? 4 days left until break?
Q1: What does Math Fact Fluency mean to you?
Hello! How is going this fine Monday?
lost my dad last month just trying to get my head bk in school
Peachy keene! How’s your day been?
Amy - I’m so very sorry! Give yourself time.
Amy, so sorry to hear. I know how hard that is. Hugs and prayers to you.
Hi Everyone Desiree 3rd from MI
Terri from Fl. Currently stem..but many many years 4th grade . https://t.co/k8RTTGTcu9
Q1: What does Math Fact Fluency mean to you?
Amy, we are so sorry for your loss. So glad you are here for .
it was a great Monday! 4 days with kids. Plan day Monday. You?
Hi Heidi - what the heck is going on in TN??? Crazy!
It has been just fantastic! A bit crazy, but I think that is the norm now! LOL
Two weeks off and a plan day the Monday we come back. Happy to have some days off before Christmas. Should be great!
Hi Colleen - glad you’re here! I’m curious about what others think as well. We are so hyper-focused on Math these days.
A1: Math fact fluency is Ss being able to quickly recall basic math facts to solve problems.
Weird for sure! 5K on Saturday and it was 70 degrees! Today it’s 50 at recess. weird
thanks! This is a great topic to get back to
A1: math fact fluency means knowing the given fact by using mental strategy or "just knowing it" does not take minutes
Sure is strange - we are having unusually warm weather too! Worried about snow piling up later!!!
A1: CCSS sate "Wherever the word fluently appears in a content standard, the word means quickly and accurately.”
It has been that way in Missouri too!
A1: I’ve always take Math Fact Fluency to mean that Ss are competent with their facts - they “KNOW” them. My ideas are changing tho
A1: It’s like sight word fluency. It frees up the mind to do “bigger” concepts easier. Not so much a timing thing IMO.
I just struggle with the definition of quickly
A1: Math fact fluency is being able to recall a fact quickly and accurately.
A1) math fact fluency is freeing up the brain to complete more challenging tasks. It is automaticity.
breaking records in IL for warm temps too
A1: Fact fluency means that sts can learn and complete multistep problems without incorrect facts tripping them up!
Hooray - you made it - I know for sure you’ll have lots of input tonight! :)
Not too too worried about that down here…but on the other hand, we’re out if there’s a half inch…so…
A1: Rapid correct response of basic and complex math facts/computation. May or may not include deep understanding.
do tell about ideas changing
So glad you’re joining in the chat tonight. I hadn’t realized they had separate “STEM” teachers - very cool!
Agree. I would add that to me it also means w/o thinking so Ss can concentrate on the process taught such as 2 digit X.
half inch….If you could hear me chuckling. I’m worried we’ll get over 100 like last year!!!
Hooray, Tammy! You aren’t late- we are just getting rolling. Glad you are here!
Spear-Swerling (2006) states ability to solve facts accur. (untimed) is prereq for automatic recall of facts.
Wow! We work until the 23rd and come back on Jan 4th
Q2: Is there a difference between automaticity and fluency?
https://t.co/wIo2lKHY0m post from K-2 world when I was helping with standards resources. Might be some useful things for
Interesting Paula - We have been working with a Math Consultant who doesn’t quite agree with this! https://t.co/kdX4yZYjOx
A1: CCSS sate "Wherever the word fluently appears in a content standard, the word means quickly and accurately.”
I struggle with rate too. There is a point where I stop worrying about it. Accuracy more imp. in the end.
Always a pleasure to have you, Dave!
Once Ss know their facts it definitely “frees” up that working memory so they can do the harder tasks! https://t.co/6gu6zMQBau
A1: It’s like sight word fluency. It frees up the mind to do “bigger” concepts easier. Not so much a timing thing IMO.
Woah. Worried about all that snow! You are a professional shoveler by now!
Ss work so hard to understand & solve complex problems only to miss it because of a computation error. https://t.co/CxcDnQVDE7
A1: Fact fluency means that sts can learn and complete multistep problems without incorrect facts tripping them up!
True. I have (I am sure we all do) a St. who works slowly but is consistently correct.
A2: Automaticity = saying your name, fluency = ability to use what you know to help you solve the bigger picture of the task.
Haha - I even make guest appearances on Skype!!! lol
A2: IMO yes automatic means knowing within 3 seconds. Fluency refers to having reliable strategies for figuring out quickly
great resource! Thanks for the share!
Can’t wait for that! Nate, she Skyped me from her driveway-with snow piled almost as tall as her!
Hi Tammy - Glad you’re joining in tonight! :)
Q3: How does building Math Fact Fluency fit in with “number sense”?
Great conversations can be had for accuracy centered around mathematical practices https://t.co/B2EWc1DCzO https://t.co/CwnbUipGaS
Ss work so hard to understand & solve complex problems only to miss it because of a computation error. https://t.co/CxcDnQVDE7
A1: Fact fluency means that sts can learn and complete multistep problems without incorrect facts tripping them up!
We’re using TNReady standards. Look aLOT like CC with small nuances of differences.
A2: I used to think that being fluent was being automatic - but working with the Math consultant has changed my mind.
A3: Just did small group with # line. Kids figured out 4s were every other 2, 6s were every other 3, etc. New to them!
A2: I think there is a difference: Automatic may come at the cost of concep knowledge.Fluency now means being “flexible” w/ numbers
A2: To me, automaticity refers to how quickly a student can give an answer. Fluency suggests a deeper level of understanding.
The research I’ve been seeing says fast and accurate are good for math facts, but timing fact tests is bad.
Yes! Let is snow, let it snow, let it snow! (But it will be a while before IN gets any!!)
A2: one word starts with an “a” one starts with a “f.”
A3) if fluency is connected to place value, it helps build number sense.
Flexible with how numbers work together is so important in our math tasks now.
Hey DAVE!!!! Love the Dave Week tie! :)
Yes, I have a Ss this year who is so slow (in ELA), but usually is very accurate.
A2 Automaticity= recall Fluency has an element of understanding. https://t.co/gIZsczFTDO
Q2: Is there a difference between automaticity and fluency?
Checking in a little late, Billy from North NJ.
Billy! Glad you are here!
A:3 I believe it fits into number sense when we think about and guide students to have flexible thinking
I totally agree with this! Accuracy over swiftness- but there needs to be SOME speed (6 sec?) at least? https://t.co/uK13erbwwB
I struggle with rate too. There is a point where I stop worrying about it. Accuracy more imp. in the end.
LOTs of nervous kiddos unable to do timed tests. when timer off, they’re spot on with the facts.
So automaticity = being able to do without really thinking about it.
I love this site ! They have some gr8 problem solving to go along with the Mathematical Practices! https://t.co/sZqwgTL1kb
A2: Perhaps a parallel to reading fluency leading to greater comprehension.
Yes :) I would think fluency is automaticity + understanding?
Yes - I’m seeing that too Research states that timed tests cause undo and needless angst https://t.co/a0QjdJQT2h
The research I’ve been seeing says fast and accurate are good for math facts, but timing fact tests is bad.
Even is Ss compete against themselves? Mine seem to be motivated in this way.
Love the analogy! https://t.co/vFGXSkjV8T
A2: Automaticity = saying your name, fluency = ability to use what you know to help you solve the bigger picture of the task.
A3: Fluency = Automaticity + Number Sense (among other things)
how does one become fast and accurate without the timed tests?
I might add “efficient” to that as well…reliable, efficient strategies. https://t.co/Sa7LMoSgvx
A2: IMO yes automatic means knowing within 3 seconds. Fluency refers to having reliable strategies for figuring out quickly
Using Reflex Math to help my RTI friends. Game based program moves them to automaticity in a fun way. https://t.co/Z6taACXog4
Using Reflex Math to help my RTI friends. Game based program moves them to automaticity in a fun way. https://t.co/iBMmXy0KLv
Think gasification of facts is great. Try to beat your last effort. Don’t like timed fact tests.
my students compete with themselves in fluency daily. I never take a grade on the timed activities
Number lines are awesome! We need to get them so they are at Ss level instead of up on the wall! https://t.co/sCRRmQj6vy
A3: Just did small group with # line. Kids figured out 4s were every other 2, 6s were every other 3, etc. New to them!
Q4: What are your activities that help students work with numbers FLEXIBLY?
I give timed tests but don't put emphasis on them. I stress imporatnce of having a strategy that will help improve time eventually
A4: We have a "math leader board" where students think of what is the same as 20, 12, 14, etc. 14 = ? 12 = ?
Being able to break numbers apart by their PV helps Ss to manipulate the # (eventually) using mental math. https://t.co/w52PK6Y50n
A3) if fluency is connected to place value, it helps build number sense.
A student last year couldn't get below 11 sec. Cont. focus on speed became detrimental.
Practice, practice. Practice. Set aside a few minutes, Ss can judge flow without a timer. https://t.co/RgtdJnY43a
how does one become fast and accurate without the timed tests?
A4: We do LOTS of tasks! Has helped us see & share our thinking! Also lets kids see there’s more than one way to solve.
I see so many correlations with solving math problems & reading stories. https://t.co/3EaM05mLXz
A2: Perhaps a parallel to reading fluency leading to greater comprehension.
A4: Write a number at the top of a poster board, and let kids write as many different ways to get that number in graffiti style!
Looks like a good discussion about my favorite topic (math). Need to catch up.
A4 visuals, place value charts, and disks to + - x / Multiple strategies same problem
A4: Mystery Number Skypes have been helpful as well as “Can you Guess My Number”.
I don't grade either. Ss see their efforts pay off when they can focus on other parts of math more easily.
A:4 Ss create games that work with and build upon understanding. Games like Contig 24 chall are great 4 thinking flexibly as well
I feel like a count up versus count down timer would really help .
A4: Lots of XtraMath at my school. I did around the world for a traveling trophy every Friday.
Daily practice on number sense and math facts increases fluency/accuracy
Decomposing - just love that word! :) https://t.co/93JR4kN5fm
A4: We have a "math leader board" where students think of what is the same as 20, 12, 14, etc. 14 = ? 12 = ?
A4: Tallies, any of the operations, pictures, blocks…any! And they love graffiti!
spend about 5-7 minutes each day in what I like to call modified number talk. Focus on fact that equation must balance +
Our principal gave us each retractable clothesline to pull across room! Fold paper over, it's great!
Q5: What are your go to activities/strategies to help students with Math Fact Practice?
So fun! Lots of things you could do!! Any examples?
A4: has great number concept tools on his website I like.
A4: Number bond work with younger students (building and taking apart numbers in different ways and lots of "what if" questions).
A:5 Raps, songs, brain gym, Xtra math, games, manipulatives, set aside a few minutes a day for quick practice we make it systematic
I have dropped the ball on this - but will work hard to do this! Kids really enjoy it & it’s meaningful! https://t.co/jejc1SpAEp
A4: We do LOTS of tasks! Has helped us see & share our thinking! Also lets kids see there’s more than one way to solve.
These are good. My Ss enjoy them, plus almost always improve 2nd time = confidence builder.
we just do this to get ss to see that a number can be represented in many different ways
A4) we do Sprints and at least 12 minutes of fluency practice. Skip counting in groups forwards and backwards is fun!
A5: The Primary Techie & are two of my go to resources to practice math with tons of FUN!
math drills using thatquiz. Not the best way to reach automaticity but they enjoy graphing and recording https://t.co/IOFxW3pqd9
That’s when you know the whole timing business isn’t right for everyone! For some it works!
is the top line related to the 12s?
I’ve started taking screen shots & putting them up at the end of the day or whenever we have a second. They LOVE them.
Love that! Art & Math combined! https://t.co/axYOwKh0Zm
A4: Write a number at the top of a poster board, and let kids write as many different ways to get that number in graffiti style!
Give Ss numbers and have them place in order, or closest to benchmarks. Used with fractions, decimals too!
We call it Sparkle… just like spell sparkle, but counting the multiples of ___ number. LOVE IT!
Q6: How do these activities help build number sense?
Using math tools really helps solidify the flexibility of number thinking! https://t.co/u7ZM3WqY3R
A4 visuals, place value charts, and disks to + - x / Multiple strategies same problem
excellent! Then I get it...thought the two went together! Thanks for the idea!
is talking math fluency now if you're around and can join in!
Have you been using a 3 or 4 digit number?
I haven't seen that app yet. Will look for it. Thanks!
Building number sense using daily data, number talks, and number routines far more valuable than the drill practice
I have not seen this - and I teach in NY! Only excuse is I taught 5th gr writing last year.
I think some of my colleagues use this.Ss write their times down as they finish.Seems to cause less stress. https://t.co/4VkyMas2zx
I feel like a count up versus count down timer would really help .
Today we did 3 digit, just very it. Still trying to get them to see how the questions guide their number sense.
It goes across the entire room! Anchored to one wall, hook on other side to connect. Will try to get pic!
A5 I'm working on a project with my Ss on fact fluency.Their challenge is to create a green screen project that teaches math facts
A6) skip counting backwards by can be difficult for Ss at 1st but eventually they get it and are excited!
We use XtraMath-Some kids really don’t like the 3 seconds so I change it to 6.some kids advance to 1.5 sec. https://t.co/4C9LdXOStZ
A4: Lots of XtraMath at my school. I did around the world for a traveling trophy every Friday.
Oh, I like this! MY SS are soooo artistic this year.
Nice, Kevin! Please share it when they complete!
Kids need to learn their basic facts in order to tackle multi digit computational multi step convoluted word problems haha
learned about it at all operations!
I might try to approach later on in the year. Right now I use the count down. It seems to motivate.+
Gonna get me one of those! GR8 idea! https://t.co/e2T73vTR8n
Our principal gave us each retractable clothesline to pull across room! Fold paper over, it's great!
I.Need.This. It must be pretty low, correct? Kudos to your principal!
Q7: How do you assess your Ss basic fact competency?
For 6,7,8s I feel that count up is better, but for things like 2s and 5s, IMO ss should have quick grasp of these
I think the key to these drills is it has to be fun for them. Pressure and competition are not the best ways to reach them all.
We have IXL - I have Ss keep track of their analytics. Another way of competing w/themselves 4 improvement. They love it.
A5: We are using The Box of Facts this yr. Just getting into it - will let you know how I make out. https://t.co/BBxpILdZFN
Agree thats the goal. Also like Ss to know how to self select tools to aide them if they aren't fluent https://t.co/8XHM8z5XLF
Kids need to learn their basic facts in order to tackle multi digit computational multi step convoluted word problems haha
Anyone use ? I feel like this approach to mastery is more beneficial. My ss got too frustrated with xtramath
NYS has math sprints in their modules. These can be useful but also damaging. Whole class competitions not the best way to motivate
What if they don't too many use fingers this year yes...in 4th to add and subtract https://t.co/0XYy7dZMMH
For 6,7,8s I feel that count up is better, but for things like 2s and 5s, IMO ss should have quick grasp of these
A7) I use MobyMax to determine who has it and who doesn't. I give quick checks and monitor sprints.
Gr8 idea - They love the idea of putting answers on Twitter and interacting with other classes!
Q8: Are your Ss required to know their basic facts in a set amount of time?
Needs to be low enough for Ss to reach. It was used interactively, I didn't leave it out all the time.
I try to get them to compete against themselves to help get to automaticity of basic facts. Deep understanding trumps memorization.
I don't use them as competition against others, only competition with themselves.
This could really help Ss understand benchmark numbers. My kiddos have trouble ESTIMATING & Rounding :( https://t.co/MQaXDaiFvo
Give Ss numbers and have them place in order, or closest to benchmarks. Used with fractions, decimals too!
Principal is awesome. He put them in every classroom when realized imp. of number lines.
vertical number lines are great too!
Large number multiplication using place value concepts works best when kids have strong command of basic facts.
Q9: Does fear factor into building Math Fluency? If so, how?
A:7 & 8 I am pretty standard right now. Always looking for different ways to efficiently assess and move on.
A8: It's on our RC. So yes.
A8: Standard for our Ss is 5 sec./fact.
Well, tell me more! It hadn’t occurred to me!
A9: When I taught math, I encouraged Ss to learn facts so they could use their brain to work out problems.
Looking for one more class to w/ on Dec. 21 from 2:40-3:10 p.m. ET. Anyone interested?
So right! This is something that I don’t often think about - until playing w/ thermometer! How do you use? https://t.co/fhQAfJehAF
vertical number lines are great too!
A9: They had to have a strategy for getting fact answer. Most Ss learned memorizing them was easiest.
A:9 it is what we make of it. Ss don't seem 2 make 2 much of it if see it as practice and foundation for bigger ideas and concepts
A8: It is on our report card that Ss need to know in 3 seconds - but I believe that is changing this year.
Hi, Arin! I would do it, but we are out this Friday!
A9: Adding time to the math fact test definitely increases the fear factor.
Once we get to large multiplication problems I let kids use multiplication charts if needed.
Q10: How do you involve parents with fact fluency or number sense?
A9 I too encouraged my Ss and work with them in small groups, fear shouldn't be a factor
My Ss use XtraMath & FrontRowEd now has a math fact component. https://t.co/TflTqqLhXr
Anyone use ? I feel like this approach to mastery is more beneficial. My ss got too frustrated with xtramath
My Ss are loving Anyone else using it?
Would love to, but we start lunch at 10:50! We call it brunch~ lol.
rounding mostly EngageNY has lessons on it
Timed fact fluency does increase fear. See and https://t.co/31QtnCbWnA
Q10: How do you involve parents with fact fluency or number sense?
Have your Ss learn to change their mindset from “I can’t do that” to “I can’t do that, yet.”
Please share more info, Nancy!
So true Dave! Deep understanding is the key! https://t.co/41wXO835Nx
I try to get them to compete against themselves to help get to automaticity of basic facts. Deep understanding trumps memorization.
A10: This is the one are of math HW I felt comfortable assigning. Fact practice.
Woah! That’s pretty early! Enjoy!
standardized testing makes us feel like kids need to know their facts. In reality, they need time to deeply understand
