#ASEchat Archive

The Association for Science Education (ASE) promotes excellence in science teaching and learning. Follow #ASEchat Mondays at 3pm ET.

Monday January 15, 2018
3:00 PM EST

  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:00 PM EST
    Tonight's topic for discussion on #ASEChat is around the particle model of matter, thanks to @oboelizzy having the casting vote
  • participatechat Jan 15 @ 3:00 PM EST
    Participate in the upcoming #ASEchat by sharing resources and collaborating at https://t.co/mKOeusFf0N
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:00 PM EST
    At what age are children taught about the states of matter? #ASEChat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:01 PM EST
    So I'd better kick off then I spose - what age should children be taught about the particle model? #asechat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:02 PM EST
    Yes - I was wondering if a particle model is taught at the same time as '3 states of matter' #ASEChat
    In reply to @oboelizzy
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:02 PM EST
    What age do you think children should be taught about the particle model of matter ? #asechat
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:03 PM EST
    Should... around year 3 the concept can be introduced and then explored from then gradually by connecting to relevant parts of science. #ASEchat
    In reply to @oboelizzy
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:03 PM EST
    It doesn't appear in NC docs until KS3 #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:04 PM EST
    How would you introduce the model to yr 3? #asechat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:04 PM EST
    I would have thought sorting and classifying materials is a useful way to introduce SoM (states of matter) although experiences of different gases may be unusual at this age #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @oboelizzy
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:05 PM EST
    Think particle model = states of matter limits its importance to the science curriculum. Connects to sound (vibrations) understanding, how we smell, density etc all introduced at primary #asechat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:05 PM EST
    #ASEChat
    • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:04 PM EST
      But they do do solids, liquids and gases at primary e.g. properties of and also physical changes
      In reply to @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:05 PM EST
    There are some difficulties in the use of language, we talk about particles of soil and then particles for S,L & G very confusing #asechat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:05 PM EST
    classifying into s.l.g can lead to children thinking that they are diff entities instead of phases of same substance. anyone experienced this? #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:06 PM EST
    Agree, but is it not better to explore this range of phenomena before introducing notion of particles? #ASEchat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:07 PM EST
    I would focus on solids and liquids first - introduce particles then as part of change of state understanding. Particle model for gases can be introduced in year 5 perhaps building on solid/liquid understanding #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:07 PM EST
    Very true indeed - language at this level very confusing indeed - one we need to take a lot more notice of IMO #asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:07 PM EST
    #ASEChat
    In reply to @hecharden, @oboelizzy
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:07 PM EST
    This concerns me and makes me into a seemingly pedantic chemist but no substance IS a gas. It is in the gas state at that temp. #asechat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:08 PM EST
    very true - but does this cause problems - not introducing particle model until ks3? #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @ViciaScience
  • ljrn42 Jan 15 @ 3:08 PM EST
    In the past I have had some success with LAPS writing 6mq answers to questions based on fairy tales to make the 6mq less of a psychological hurdle. Then bring in the sci #TeamScience #ASEchat
    In reply to @raineypoos, @Team_Science1
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:08 PM EST
    So when would a child be taught that ice and water are the same stuff but different states? #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @oboelizzy
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:08 PM EST
    Particles of soil is wrong though - given soil is a mix of rock and organic matter. Age appropriate to talk about soil = rock and organic particles mixed up I think (happy to be challenged on that point!) #asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • chemDrK Jan 15 @ 3:09 PM EST
    Yep. That's a troublesome aspect of science in general. Been talking to local EY teacher about this. Interesting. #asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:09 PM EST
    Which leads to them thinking there is air or water between the particles #AARRGH #asechat
    • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:05 PM EST
      There are some difficulties in the use of language, we talk about particles of soil and then particles for S,L & G very confusing #asechat
  • cleverfiend Jan 15 @ 3:09 PM EST
    And then I've seen some terrible particle diagrams at KS3 - liquids seems to often get the raw deal 😀 #ASEchat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @hecharden, @ViciaScience
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:09 PM EST
    I think gases as actually being stuff is a big issue. How do you explain? Once watched two yr 5's argue about whether air existed. One waved hands and said he could feel it! #asechat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:09 PM EST
    absolutely right - a extremely common misconception #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:09 PM EST
    America run a 5E system (introduced to it at #ASEconf) which focuses on phenomena first then explaining which I quite liked #ASEchat
    In reply to @ViciaScience
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:10 PM EST
    Not pedantic in the slightest! #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • chemDrK Jan 15 @ 3:10 PM EST
    Um... I'd be happy with particles in context of soil. Different context. Different meaning.... Troublesome but common in Science #asechat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @NeedhamL56
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:11 PM EST
    This is why changes of state is important - the issue here is water and how we talk about it. It has different names for the phases which doesn’t help and has unusual property changes #ASEchat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:11 PM EST
    This approach has a lot to commend it. Too often the models we use almost become as important as the phenomena so they get confused #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:11 PM EST
    Very important to get particle diagrams 'right' but even 'correct' diagrams can mislead. In gas state particles much more spread out. #asechat
    In reply to @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • _theteachr Jan 15 @ 3:11 PM EST
    We talk about melting points of halogens... but apparently iodine sublimes... and still has a melting point... (found out it can melt and sublime) #ASEChat
  • LessonToolbox Jan 15 @ 3:12 PM EST
    Woah! Awesome #physics experiment with a hose pipe and a speaker... https://t.co/aRj6BviN1H #asechat #ukedchat #aussieEd
  • theed_ucator Jan 15 @ 3:12 PM EST
    New KS3 AQA Activate course defines ‘substances’ as things only made up of one type of particle, including pure water ‘particles’ 😢 and ‘mixtures’ as basically everything else...not fun! #ASEChat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:12 PM EST
    And water as a substance is poorly understood. Watched a lesson where clouds were described by teacher as water in gaseous state #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @oboelizzy
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:12 PM EST
    I would do it when changes of state are done - so again maybe y3 or y4. For such fundament science of one of the most abundant chemicals on the planet it isn’t well done (by curriculum or teachers) in my experience #ASEchat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:12 PM EST
    Understanding of the particle mod is also an important introduction to ways of thinking in chemistry (submicroscopic) #asechat
  • _theteachr Jan 15 @ 3:13 PM EST
    And steam is not a gas?? #ASEChat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:13 PM EST
    One of the problems with diagrams is that they are 2D and cannot show motion effectively. Some simulations do a much better job #ASEchat
    In reply to @hecharden, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:14 PM EST
    If we are aware that using the term particle is likely to cause confusion (soil) then we can be explicit, otherwise just sloppy language use #asechat
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:14 PM EST
    Once phenomena have been looked at talked about zooming in - visualiser can help establish principle - drama or using ‘ball pit’ balls to model and then apply model to multiple examples over several lessons #ASEchat
    In reply to @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:14 PM EST
    liquid #ASEChat
    In reply to @_theteachr
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
    Some of the very best to be found in 'stuff and substance' - see STEM library on STEM website #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @cleverfiend, @ViciaScience
  • BiochemSoc Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
    Our beautiful new posters have arrived! We will post them to you for free, just email education@biochemistry.org (while stocks last!) #ASEchat #scied #stem
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
    Do young children (primary) have an innate understanding, even if flawed, of 'particles'? #asechat
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
    The difference between boiling and evaporation isn’t well explained either #ASEchat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:16 PM EST
    Agreed! #ASEChat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
      The difference between boiling and evaporation isn’t well explained either #ASEchat
      In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:16 PM EST
    #ASEChat
    • eadlem Jan 15 @ 3:14 PM EST
      My daughter has just been taught it in year 4.
      In reply to @ViciaScience
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:16 PM EST
    Seen that myself - also poor understanding of word 'steam' #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • ndbrning Jan 15 @ 3:16 PM EST
    Conveying a sense of scale when teaching particle diagrams is definitely important – though tricky to do. Anyone got any good strategies for this? #ASEChat
    In reply to @hecharden, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:17 PM EST
    It is a tricky concept - I've tried explaining it to Primary 7 pupils and not sure many of them got it #asechat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • _theteachr Jan 15 @ 3:18 PM EST
    How would we define ‘particle’? Because I think it’s an important word for the model. Otherwise we would say, ‘the molecules or ions or atoms...’ all the time. #ASEChat
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:18 PM EST
    The trouble is, we understand it, and it’s hard not to assume they are following the logic with only half the knowledge (sorry bad tweet) #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
      The difference between boiling and evaporation isn’t well explained either #ASEchat
      In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:18 PM EST
    Yep - this is quite common - it's very difficult in PS to demonstrate substances changing state - other then water #asechat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:18 PM EST
    Very true statement indeed - but if an understanding of the particle model is there first then it becomes easier? #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
      The difference between boiling and evaporation isn’t well explained either #ASEchat
      In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:18 PM EST
    Good point! What do we mean by particles? And what scale? (individual atoms or molecules of say, carbohydrate?) #ASEChat
    In reply to @ndbrning, @hecharden, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:20 PM EST
    The word particle is very problematic. Once students have learnt atom, molecule, ion it can be confusing and misinterpreted.Also particulates in air pollution on much larger scale #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @ndbrning, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:20 PM EST
    I think the debate is less around when to ‘do’ the particle model but when it is introduced and mapping out the progression of the model to where we want children to be at each year so they understand related concepts. It shouldn’t be a one off learning event. #asechat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:20 PM EST
    STEM Library also has stuff from 80's on pupil's understanding - and things have not improved much in last 30 years! #ASEChat
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:21 PM EST
    Not sure at a lower level but once mole equations known maybe?#asechat
    In reply to @ndbrning, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:21 PM EST
    Yup - this is a very key issue and of course water is far from a 'normal' substance because of H-bonding! #asechat
    In reply to @Glazgow, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:22 PM EST
    Also how can you assess whether pupils have understood, 'doing' the particle model does not necessarily equal understanding #asechat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:22 PM EST
    I think so but this understanding has be combined with understanding the effect of temperature on the model - time to bring in cognitive load theory 🤗 #ASEchat
    In reply to @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:22 PM EST
    (un)fortunately so many ideas in science revolve around particle model that I think children get confused when model is enhanced for certain ideas - eg gas diffusion and enzyme action seem to be different scales to me #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    So true #asechat
    • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:22 PM EST
      Also how can you assess whether pupils have understood, 'doing' the particle model does not necessarily equal understanding #asechat
      In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    Stuff and substance here https://t.co/FC5xfEQTJa ..a SEP resource, lots of others too, often overlooked #asechat
    • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:15 PM EST
      Some of the very best to be found in 'stuff and substance' - see STEM library on STEM website #asechat
      In reply to @hecharden, @cleverfiend, @ViciaScience
  • _theteachr Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    Using spheres or balls really helps with understanding but set you on a path to strong misconceptions, or at least big diversion from reality. #ASEChat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    would that be H bonding in ice by any chance? #ASEChat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @Glazgow, @MarcNeesam
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    What would make a good diagnostic question to probe student understanding of particle model? I would ask what the areas between particles represent. #asechat
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    #asechat and yet it seems to be standard material/ substance for exploring states and particles and corresponding models, need an as accessible alternative
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @Glazgow, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:23 PM EST
    https://t.co/ta3cg8bVqy I've used this before to give a sense of the scale of atoms etc #asechat
    In reply to @ndbrning, @hecharden, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:24 PM EST
    Just like the soil particle! #asechat we do make things hard!
    • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:20 PM EST
      The word particle is very problematic. Once students have learnt atom, molecule, ion it can be confusing and misinterpreted.Also particulates in air pollution on much larger scale #asechat
      In reply to @ViciaScience, @ndbrning, @cleverfiend, @oboelizzy
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:24 PM EST
    Assessed by application and/or by how science phenomena related to the model is explained #ASEchat
    In reply to @hecharden
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:24 PM EST
    You also need to be careful using chocolate as it is a mixture so presumably not a sharp melting point #asechat
    In reply to @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @Glazgow, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:25 PM EST
    I have used Gallium before to demonstrate a solid melting and then existing as a liquid - good example #asechat
    In reply to @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:25 PM EST
    The APU had a go at winkling out understanding rather than recall, years ago. Outcomes in this 'ancient' report https://t.co/BZ75EMwpCE #ASEChat
    In reply to @hecharden, @MarcNeesam
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:25 PM EST
    Often when writing I avoid the word particle altogether where possible (after year 7)#asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:26 PM EST
    Does that matter in Y3? #asechat
    • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:24 PM EST
      You also need to be careful using chocolate as it is a mixture so presumably not a sharp melting point #asechat
      In reply to @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @Glazgow, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:26 PM EST
    You have samples of gallium?!#asechat
    In reply to @Glazgow, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:26 PM EST
    No, very different melting points - we did this as a science club investigation and found a wide variety of MPs #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:26 PM EST
    I think it does because it can lead to misconceptions #asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:26 PM EST
    Was thinking cooling curves #asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
    Chocolate should generally stay out of science - don’t get me started on using chocolate to model the rock cycle! 🌋 #ASEchat
    In reply to @hecharden, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @Glazgow, @ViciaScience
  • hopkinsmmi Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
    I work with trained primary (science) and I would suggest introducing the simple model in Y4/5 - normally via a role play using our bodies as particles #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
    I'll give you a better and evidenced answer in about 18 months time!!!!! #asechat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • theed_ucator Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
    Exactly- if I could get away with it, I’d not even use the ‘p’ word with Y7! Confusing and often misleading to shy away from correct terms like atom, molecule etc! #ASEChat
    In reply to @hecharden, @NeedhamL56
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
    Chocolate is not one substance which is worth children realising. That is why there are different types of chocolate!#asechat
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @NeedhamL56
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
    #asechat we make particle mean everything in size from Higgs to diesel particulates and perhaps even bigger, we need to take care
    In reply to @hecharden, @NeedhamL56
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:28 PM EST
    Yes, bought some from the internet a few years ago - keep it in a sealed tube and show that it melts in warm water #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:28 PM EST
    Tricky to teach particle model without using particle #asechat
    In reply to @theed_ucator, @NeedhamL56
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:29 PM EST
    Beware if I am editing..I always pick up on this!#asechat
    In reply to @stevethedoc1, @NeedhamL56
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:29 PM EST
    #asechat wow such large particles!
    In reply to @hopkinsmmi, @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:29 PM EST
    Should I not have it? All the info I read said it was perfectly safe. #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:29 PM EST
    As in air pollution pm 10 and pm 2.5. #ASEChat
    In reply to @stevethedoc1, @hecharden, @NeedhamL56
  • hecharden Jan 15 @ 3:29 PM EST
    Sorry folks...got to eat now...enjoy rest of chat.#asechat
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:29 PM EST
    What about Starburst for modeling the rock cycle? Not done it myself but see it quite often #asechat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @hecharden, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:30 PM EST
    Tied into all this is of course teacher and children understanding what a model is and this isn’t in science curriculum (the American NGSS does include something on models I think) #asechat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:31 PM EST
    I found this RSC article on particles fascinating - fitting one particle into the space between others! #ASEChat https://t.co/vomyefUlRc
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:31 PM EST
    Many do this, and probably helps, but I often wonder if they realise that what their bodies are modelling is a scientists model and not reality? #asechat
    • hopkinsmmi Jan 15 @ 3:27 PM EST
      I work with trained primary (science) and I would suggest introducing the simple model in Y4/5 - normally via a role play using our bodies as particles #asechat
      In reply to @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
    #asechat always a great model BUT only if children and teachers realise it is only a MODEL, not real thing, limitations
    In reply to @hopkinsmmi, @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
    One school of thought suggests that children should only be examined on scientific phenomena and not the models that explain them. Thoughts? #ASEchat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
    How many teachers explain to their children (primary or secondary) what a scientific model is? #asechat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
    Absolutely!! #asechat
    • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
      #asechat always a great model BUT only if children and teachers realise it is only a MODEL, not real thing, limitations
      In reply to @hopkinsmmi, @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • A_Weatherall - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:33 PM EST
    Do we need the particle model? #asechat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:33 PM EST
    This is an exceptionally important question IMO #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
      How many teachers explain to their children (primary or secondary) what a scientific model is? #asechat
  • alexbclearning Jan 15 @ 3:33 PM EST
    #asechat We explicitly teach models and what they are try to achive as part of out Let's Think / Dialogical Education approach with our grade 6 classes.
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:33 PM EST
    Study guide for teaching about particles https://t.co/2pOETwnHqa I’m trying to find the progression maps from the Framework, but failing #asechat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:33 PM EST
    The National Strategies we keen to promote thinking around the use of models - is it a good enough model? #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:34 PM EST
    in a word Alex - YES!!! #asechat
  • compoundchem Jan 15 @ 3:34 PM EST
    Suppose emphasising with students that 'particles' is something of a broad umbrella term (and reminding them of this when new terms introduced) is important #ASEChat
    In reply to @theed_ucator, @hecharden, @NeedhamL56
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:34 PM EST
    Models are an important part of what scientists have done historically to understand the world so should be taught and assessed. How will children learn about atomic structure without a model? #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:35 PM EST
    This doc contains progression maps and misconceptions for teaching particle model https://t.co/qNGOPqyqyy #ASEChat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:35 PM EST
    Ah OK! #asechat
    In reply to @oboelizzy
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:35 PM EST
    #ASEchat
    In reply to @A_Weatherall
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:35 PM EST
    Remind me Alex - does your grade 6 correspond to UK year 7? #asechat
    In reply to @alexbclearning
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:35 PM EST
    #asechat and ASE have a couple of books on models even for secondary folk
    In reply to @MarcNeesam
  • hopkinsmmi Jan 15 @ 3:35 PM EST
    Sure but is that not always true? I would argue growing sophisticated modelling at heart of science teaching #asechat
    • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
      #asechat always a great model BUT only if children and teachers realise it is only a MODEL, not real thing, limitations
      In reply to @hopkinsmmi, @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • ndbrning Jan 15 @ 3:36 PM EST
    Agree! Think it's important to get students to think about and suggest limitations of the models they encounter for this reason. #asechat
    In reply to @stevethedoc1, @hopkinsmmi, @hecharden, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:37 PM EST
    yes that’s the same one Ive just posted link to. Forgot it had a progression map thank you! #asechat
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:37 PM EST
    I think the first two bullet points can be done in primary #ASEchat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @NeedhamL56
  • stormeducation Jan 15 @ 3:37 PM EST
    #asechat i would agree that models are important in #science, but how do teachers put across that concept in class?
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:38 PM EST
    We need to be clear in using scientific terminology. Children are not quite as adept as us at recognising when to use a particular interpretation whereas we can happily swap between meanings given right context clues #ASEChat
  • GreenAPL Jan 15 @ 3:39 PM EST
    Interest your bright age 10 to 13 students in #space with this big bang factsheet & worksheet resource https://t.co/BMV5FOG8ja #asechat #scichat #scichatnz #teamscience #sciencesquad @tesAustralia @TesResources @maelhmatthews
  • _theteachr Jan 15 @ 3:39 PM EST
    There is no such thing as a perfect model. If there was, it wouldn’t be a model... #ASEChat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:39 PM EST
    Agree completely Paul but it is surprising how many teachers and children do not really appreciate what a scientific model is #asechat
    In reply to @hopkinsmmi
  • stormeducation Jan 15 @ 3:39 PM EST
    #asechat we also like the idea of "simulations", which are a bit like models
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:40 PM EST
    Absolutely yes! #asechat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:40 PM EST
    Useful piece in Teach Now! Science by @teacherhead explaining to trainees how to introduce and use a particle model #ASEchat (p40)
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:41 PM EST
    #asechat not always just nearly always
    In reply to @hopkinsmmi
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:41 PM EST
    Apparently models, and progression in understanding models, was going to be clearly positions in the 2014 science curriculum reforms but was dropped... #asechat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:41 PM EST
    Because its fundamental to understanding all science IMO #asechat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd
  • stormeducation Jan 15 @ 3:42 PM EST
    Yes, @_theteachr a model is the current "best guess" #asechat
  • _theteachr Jan 15 @ 3:42 PM EST
    Anyone know the difference between a model and an analogy? #ASEChat
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:42 PM EST
    Me! and that’s not straightforward either #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:32 PM EST
      How many teachers explain to their children (primary or secondary) what a scientific model is? #asechat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:42 PM EST
    There is a discussion to be had on the difference between a computer simulation and a computer model. See PhET for an example #ASEChat https://t.co/tw3C4vWcoa
    In reply to @stormeducation
  • theed_ucator Jan 15 @ 3:42 PM EST
    One of my Y7s today asked me if we were going to be studying dark matter as a part of the ‘particles’ topic. I told her to come and teach me about it when she was a graduate physicist 🙈 #ASEChat
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:43 PM EST
    It is beginning to touch on how we represent what we cannot directly see or sense - what is represention is part of modelling #ASEchat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @oboelizzy
  • stormeducation Jan 15 @ 3:44 PM EST
    Good point, and a lovely simulation @ViciaScience #asechat #ngss
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:44 PM EST
    Does anyone use an effective physical artefact (manipulative) to help children understand a particle model? #ASEChat
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:45 PM EST
    If everything is all the more reason to teach about what a model is surely? #ASEchat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @oboelizzy
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:46 PM EST
    Agree completely Marc #asechat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @ManYanaEd
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:46 PM EST
    #asechat why wait that long, can she be allowed to teach us now?
    In reply to @theed_ucator
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:47 PM EST
    Based on your previous tweet... to describe reality? #ASEchat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:47 PM EST
    Absolutely. Children need to understand the difference between observation / explanation just as they need to understand the difference between fact and opinion #ASEChat
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @ManYanaEd, @oboelizzy
  • Glazgow Jan 15 @ 3:47 PM EST
    That's ok - the kids, and me, are fascinated by it - great model for states as well. #asechat
    In reply to @hecharden, @stevethedoc1, @oboelizzy, @ViciaScience, @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:47 PM EST
    What do you mean? #asechat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:48 PM EST
    So what physical evidence do you provide for children to help them understand particulate model of matter? #ASEChat
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:49 PM EST
    Yup - agree completely - I still think it is never to early to begin to use these ideas! #asechat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @MarcNeesam
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:50 PM EST
    Why does the child need to 'use' that knowledge at that time? #asechat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @MarcNeesam
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:50 PM EST
    #asechat but only if teacher feels comfortable
    In reply to @oboelizzy, @ManYanaEd, @MarcNeesam
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:50 PM EST
    Here is something from the STEM Library on teaching particle model using Brownian motion https://t.co/SV2upZYxGP #ASEChat
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:52 PM EST
    For my Y8 class, trying to compress sealed syringes of air, water and sand triggered a great discussion around what could be 'felt' and their explanations for it #ASEChat
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:52 PM EST
    KS4 PoS 2014 "using a variety of concepts and models to develop scientific explanations and understanding” WS section #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:45 PM EST
      If everything is all the more reason to teach about what a model is surely? #ASEchat
      In reply to @ManYanaEd, @oboelizzy
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:52 PM EST
    You dont need to 'know' this - I am asking you to think and consider it #asechat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @MarcNeesam
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:52 PM EST
    To describe phenomena and engage with the explanation the teacher gives and is able to evaluate that description (when older more so) and evaluate is the model is good enough - part of the journey science is on #ASEchat
    In reply to @ManYanaEd, @oboelizzy
  • A_Weatherall - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:52 PM EST
    Ok cos some suggest why bother, move straight to atoms, molecules etc then introduce it as a simplification for kinetic model of gases. #asechat
    In reply to @oboelizzy
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:53 PM EST
    #ASEChat
    • flippedaround Jan 15 @ 3:52 PM EST
      I find simulations “particularly”😀 useful. Especially Boardworks animations. Great for arrangement and movement of particles. Also, for diffusion.
      In reply to @ViciaScience
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:53 PM EST
    I think models and what one is can and should be introduced earlier - as low as primary at a simple level. #ASEchat
    In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:54 PM EST
    I once got my class to construct their own computer simulations of SLG using the animation feature in PowerPoint. Looking back this may have been an example of child cruelty #ASEchat
    In reply to @flippedaround
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:56 PM EST
    Do not overlook the importance of a good grasp of particle theory for biology - osmosis, gas exchange, digestion, nerve impulse transmission etc #ASEChat
    In reply to @A_Weatherall, @oboelizzy
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:56 PM EST
    #asechat not should but MUST sadly too many do not understand the why and wherefore and therefore how to introduce and use models, presented as 'real' for too many
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @NeedhamL56
  • A_Weatherall - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:56 PM EST
    I can't believe you even went there #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @flippedaround
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:56 PM EST
    KS3 PoS p3 "start to use modelling and abstract ideas to develop and evaluate explanations” #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:53 PM EST
      I think models and what one is can and should be introduced earlier - as low as primary at a simple level. #ASEchat
      In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:58 PM EST
    I always see the particle model as the first step towards atomic models. Otherwise we are just moving children too quickly from macro to sub-atomic thinking #ASEchat
    In reply to @A_Weatherall, @oboelizzy
  • A_Weatherall - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:58 PM EST
    What physical evidence can you provide? #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience
  • ViciaScience Jan 15 @ 3:58 PM EST
    One way to introduce use of models, and particle model in particular is to play 'what is in the tin', but never allowed to reveal the contents, only explore the evidence for hypothesis #ASEChat
  • stevethedoc1 Jan 15 @ 3:59 PM EST
    #asechat and tonight's twitter particles seem to have been very big as our time has been filled very rapidly, 9 already!? Thanks
    In reply to @MarcNeesam, @NeedhamL56
  • oboelizzy Jan 15 @ 3:59 PM EST
    Prob with waiting until KS3 to introduce these ideas is that you inadvertently build up misconceptions which can then take a long time to undo #asechat
    • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:56 PM EST
      KS3 PoS p3 "start to use modelling and abstract ideas to develop and evaluate explanations” #asechat
      • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:53 PM EST
        I think models and what one is can and should be introduced earlier - as low as primary at a simple level. #ASEchat
        In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • NeedhamL56 - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:59 PM EST
    Only place in primary PoS models are mentioned seems to be using physical models, so you are right, an omission #asechat
    • MarcNeesam Jan 15 @ 3:53 PM EST
      I think models and what one is can and should be introduced earlier - as low as primary at a simple level. #ASEchat
      In reply to @NeedhamL56
  • A_Weatherall - Moderator Jan 15 @ 3:59 PM EST
    I will not. #asechat
    In reply to @ViciaScience, @oboelizzy