#mschat Archive
A chat that offers middle school teachers a chance to have a collaborative discussion about a different topic each week. Our topics change from week to week, ranging from Common Core State Standards to Character Education. During the chat, participants exchanges ideas and resources. The chat group ranges in size each week from 10 to 50+ participants. Discussion can be general talking about instructional style or process to specific. Recently members of the chat group help each other create lessons.
Thursday February 18, 2016
It is time to get the train rolling since it is 8 PM ET ... Middle school time where ever you may be
Let's start with introductions: Todd here from Warren, MI 6th grade science teacher ....
Topic tonight is Grading and student learning... How they go together...
Anthony from Oklahoma here. I teach 7th grade math. Currently watching the future parents on Big Bang Theory.
Mike from PA 7th grade SS
Nick Tutolo, Middle School Math, Pittsburgh, PA.
Good evening Anthony, Big Bang on DVR, Wife has remote watching Gray's while I tweet
Doug, 7th/8th grade SS teacher, from NY
Glad you can join us tonight Nick
Rachelle from St. Clair. Sec Supervisor Double dipping and tonight. Was challenged by
Good evening Doug hope all is well in NY
One of the reasons I have difficulty focusing in this chat. haha
Double dipping and will we be fun evening
Helen, NYC Parent Coordinator
Brad in Bangkok. Former international school MS principal.
LOL, Can't moderate and watch tv for sure
Hi all! Missie, French teacher from VA!
Good morning Brad, thanks for joining in from the other side of the world
Questions will be using Q 1 .. A1 format coming up in a few
Thanks for joining in Missie
Well now the party can begin Mike is here!!
Tracy from Green Bay, middle school health
Good evening, .
Walt, MS principal from SE Michigan.
BTW love the idea of continual grading... Marking periods have always bugged me
Hey Ben- Dean o' Ss & in Reno NV
Sara. Language Arts in Indiana.
Good evening Walt hope you are having a great break!
Brett, music/band teacher from Wisconsin, excited to join another
Q1: What is your district or building grading policy?
Our grading policy is pretty much up to the teacher/ grade level team to determine what works best for their students.
A1: No district policy, build policy is that grades reflect student learning
Looking for strategies to manage your middle school classroom? Check out this collection of resources: https://t.co/loVxcIm76B
so 80% assessments and 20% homework? I hear that a lot just glad not where I work not for me
A1: District just created scale last year. Individual building are doing grading work. Many starting with meaning of zero
A1: Generally it is up to the teacher, but homework is 10%
A1: We currently are looking at new ideas for grading/homework policy in our building. https://t.co/jTX8RKPwkv
Q1: What is your district or building grading policy?
I like the openness of the policy. The key is to figure out what do grades even mean. https://t.co/88CAgvh0Gd
A1: No district policy, build policy is that grades reflect student learning
A1 At previous school, full SBG built on K-12 assessment philosophy/essential agreements. No letters or % in MS.
Hello everyone! Cathy, MS principal, upstate NY
SO 80% assessment and 20% homework? how is that working? Not for me but hear it alot
A1 10 minutes per grade level, not content area, with reading encouraged. https://t.co/1ocOGAMUMz
Q1: What is your district or building grading policy?
I am not a fan. If a student tanks a test for what ever reason it is a long road back.
Been working for a few years on having "our grades accurately communicate what a student knows, understands and is able to do."
YES, I like an open plan so that grades have meaning
A1 just had this discussion at our site - working to create a consistent message is challenging https://t.co/ygs7xRmfKB
Q1: What is your district or building grading policy?
A1 Point scale system with a standards based rating based on scored assignments
We need to figure out what we want the grades to reflect and be clear about what they represent.
A1: We just use the traditional letter grading system, but have been interested in the competency-based system for awhile
A1: there is a grading scale and no uniform policy.
A1: Grades need to reflect learning, not effort (or lack of) in our district. Not always easy!
A1 Formatives (practice) not graded; summatives - makeups allowed; moving focus from accumulating points to "What did you learn?"
Same here- much discussion on how we should be consistent across our school https://t.co/vDWemnGKe7
A1: No district policy, build policy is that grades reflect student learning
That has been our challenge to move from effort to learning but we are getting there
follow Doing CBE work at Fraser Schools in Michigan
Joining a few mins late from suburban Chicago and ready for !
A1. Primarily based on mastery of NY State learning standards.
As are we-finding this is a huge issue to take on https://t.co/v6FIyeRSrd
A1: We currently are looking at new ideas for grading/homework policy in our building. https://t.co/jTX8RKPwkv
Q1: What is your district or building grading policy?
I am not a big fan of building wide policies IMO. Let the T have freedom and let Ss adapt like they will in life.
Consistent, yeah that is really hard to find with grades... teacher to teacher there are big differences
A1: At the elem level - grades are standards based. Once then get to MS, grades magically become percentages.
A1: No policy on percentages/weighting. We have been looking at Grading Smarter Not Harder and promoting grades having meaning.
A1: Standards-based report cards at ES & MS, but no clear-cut policy. Working to bring everybody along.
I got to pull from the school and use Formative/Summative with Summative taking 100% and endless retakes!
SO grade for 10 minutes only, make sure you read their work? (or is this your homework plan?)
So important-much more than just a couple of test grades- need to reflect authentic learning https://t.co/KOWMzfTiCy
Been working for a few years on having "our grades accurately communicate what a student knows, understands and is able to do."
Endless retakes? What happens in June?
Fantastic! Trying to start the makeup conversation going at my school - "how else can u show your understanding/skills
In this blog post, I go into defining grades and being clear about their purpose. Grades: What Do They Mean? https://t.co/JWLAIiix4U
A1 Should have paid closer attention to question. No consistent policy but homework is checked for completion more than accuracy.
can't they retake test? I am big fan of retakes for full credit (different questions of course)
Yes just within our leadership team we have differing opinions and philosophy https://t.co/2pmaXxbecM
Consistent, yeah that is really hard to find with grades... teacher to teacher there are big differences
I got this from my admin this year- I don't share in the bldg - glad to be in a trailer, but it's golden here!
Homework plan. I just failed my reading for tonight.
Which is really hard. An A for one student could reflect something totally different than an A to another student
Ding ding ding!!! https://t.co/J03MTqxBZ6
We need to figure out what we want the grades to reflect and be clear about what they represent.
If we do retakes Ss can't get better than 80%. Once again IMO I don't agree.
A1. 60% for summarize with retakes under 80%. 40% for formative work.
Okay seems like lots of different grading policies and lack there of out there on to question 2
A1 Our grading is SS mirrors Hs grading policy. 80/20, tests/hmwk.
That’s what we need to be clear to all constituents what that A actually means.
At old site had stnd based that some how were translated to A-F on dist Report card-talk about confusing https://t.co/6GBcpz5Fxy
A1: At the elem level - grades are standards based. Once then get to MS, grades magically become percentages.
Jennifer from bucks county checking in late!!
Close to all grades reflecting performance on summative assessments.
Fix the ones that have issues. Why have a blanket policy? Life is not a blanket.
A1: love idea of assessing skills but how do you keep up? Does late work constantly roll in?
YIKES, Tough system... even ballplayers have slumps and best they can do is 40%
A1 part 2 Got the opportunity to go in my music classes this year - love how focus is mastery of skills/standards vs. points
Or alternate assessments. Ss love to have autonomy in how they are demonstrating mastery
consistency. Accuracy. Equity. To name a few reasons.
Q2: How does your grading plan support your students learning? (goal of education)
Very confusing for he Ss and they don't seem to care about their percentages as much.
Are retakes allowed on those? https://t.co/07rljwVnlg
Close to all grades reflecting performance on summative assessments.
A1: conversations around averages measuring understanding or application of content, not lack of compliance (the dreaded zero).
Decision needs made by student if comfortable to continue w/language. BEST is new type of assessments to show growth
A2: By being very clear about what the grades mean, we can have better conversations about student learning with students.
A2: When in th eclassroom, Ss who completed assignments/met due dates given credit. Redos if not at competency level.
A2: Our school gives students retake opportunities for full credit, Helps students want to get the knowledge
A2: Allowing retakes gives students multiple opportunities to demonstrate their learning.
We need to move away from talking about grades and the confusion they cause and move towards the process.
A2 I don't think the grading policy matter as much as what is being graded
A2: Force students to complete work by giving incomplete as a grade instead of 0 or marked down for being late
A2: SHOULD be way to clearly communicate what students know & can do in a way that students, parents, and educators all understand.
A2 Retakes allowed but only after signature from home and in most cases reteaching by teacher. https://t.co/0Zt3Q7DqA9
Q2: How does your grading plan support your students learning? (goal of education)
Great point, so What do you grade? will be next question
But doesn't work that way, yet. https://t.co/UxjSuoXTNl
A2: SHOULD be way to clearly communicate what students know & can do in a way that students, parents, and educators all understand.
A2: Our grading practices promote a growth mindset which reflects that our learning is never "done."
A2 Grdbk evals standards using BEG, DEV, SECURE - I track progress and use all info to determine final grade (usually most recent)
We have retake contracts where students have to show complete work and parent signature
Own personal opinion is need to reflect multiple data protection into summative/formative/observational but not based on HW
A2: my grading plan never closes the door to learning Just because the unit is over or the test is done.
Yes. TRUE accountability! https://t.co/XGP4dB7PcA
A2: Force students to complete work by giving incomplete as a grade instead of 0 or marked down for being late
also allows them to build grit, keep doing until the get things "right"
Accuracy up to the teacher. Equity? Consistency...so we all march in lock step? How about by subject area.
We need to define what learning means for Ss It's not just spitting back info It's making meaning out of info. Learning is long term
I have always struggled with the retakes when it comes to closing out a quarter. What happens then?
YES, give reinforcement assignment, time to go over with teacher. ALL part of retake contracts w/ parent signature
A2 I allow retakes and a chance to show what they have learned beyond the test.
DITTO, need to give student many opportunities to show what they know/ often only show tip of iceberg
Consistency so the grade reflects the knowledge & skills a student demonstrates, not the teacher they have. https://t.co/zcJ9njZzd8
Accuracy up to the teacher. Equity? Consistency...so we all march in lock step? How about by subject area.
A2: How do district wide summative assessments fit into retakes? Can/should Ss retake those?
Travis MS Principal from PA joining late!
A1. Have had standards based 3,2,1 for three years. Going back to %. Parents never understood the numbers.
We are struggling through this issure right now, as well.
A2 lots of talk about retakes. What are the policies for this? Can a Ss retake anything? How do Ss show readiness?
One of my favorite conversations Grading versus learning!!
I think that someone was or at least I have heard it come out of his mouth
if the assessment is needed then in a perfect world it would be an INC until done.
Great to see you here Travis
Thanks Todd, was packing for a snowboarding weekend!
Q3: WHAT do we grade to show learning?
Checking in late! Happy to be here!
A3: Final Products, after the learning has taken place, after formative assessments that show learning is happening
yep! Grades are Accessible 24/7.
A3: I think Ss should have some choice in items that demonstrate learning for grade. And assessments in multiple formats
A3: Final projects and assessments
I have a policy where Sts have to do corrections, get extra help, etc. before the retake. This is signed by the parent
A3 No need to provide summative grade on everything. What's most important? Be flexible on how S shows learning.
I want to get there, not quite but working on it
Interesting. Was it poor implementation? Communication? https://t.co/Y7tux4TBIg
A1. Have had standards based 3,2,1 for three years. Going back to %. Parents never understood the numbers.
Q3 What we grade should be purposeful. Allow Ss to use skills to show what content they've gained and what Ss can do
Hi everyone,
Mark
Instructional Coach
Niagara Canada
It has been a process to get our p's and s's to really use this system effectively. How were able to do it?
A3 Grade the most current evidence of mastery.
The average does not demonstrate learning if one has steadily improved
AGREED like to grade what shows the most learning
If grading takes points off for lateness,doesn't allow for redos or simply reflects recall...it doesn't say anything about learning
But do we need to teach to mastery? I still haven't mastered much in my life
A3: Assessments, "end of learning" projects
What we ultimately decide to assess is a reflection of what we value as teachers and what we want student to value.
A3: let me be the first to say my ideal answer the Q and what actually happens in my class don't always line up.
So no deadline to finally stop and focus on new material. Seems like a set up for a student to get behind.
A3 Woudn't it be awesome if we graded only those things the students thought showed their best work? https://t.co/iURmXk2L0M
Q3: WHAT do we grade to show learning?
I often question why we still have progress reports when we have Schoology.
Totally agree. Students are more engaged when they have some control over how they demonstrate mastery
A3
Wonder if we are "grading" lots of simple stuff... or a little bit of important stuff?
Q3A DO all students need to have same products graded? or can they be different paths to same target?
Liz-just got here A3:my Ss want everything graded. If I don't grade it they don't put much effort into it. First time I've had this
A little late, but that 8th grade girls basketball game needed to be won. Nathan Kleinmeyer, 8th American History in Plattsmouth, NE
4 years in and I think we are finally getting there now that it is finally whole school.
since my grade book usually has 8-12 grades for 10 weeks I hope it is the important stuff
A3) We assess and report on learning outcomes/objectives.
A3: I try to grade LOs on summatives after a couple of formatives.The perfect plan gets muddles w/all the other stuff I do as a MS T
A3 Music performances, Ss eval of their own and others performances, Music composition/creation
A3: Ideally, shouldn't matter as long as there is evidence of learning, but this may vary by subject, too. https://t.co/9BRanC1lFn
Q3A DO all students need to have same products graded? or can they be different paths to same target?
THAT would be ideal: One grade per week, that product students pick show their best work!
A3) We should grade the skills, not the task.
A3 Good point - Grading should never take away hope-- kids can learn without grades but cannot without feedback
A3A:The goal is learning, so let's get that goal. Great teachers can provide many different paths to how students get there.
Wonder if WE see difference between "assessment" and "evaluation?
Assessment is about learning about our Ss...
Evaluation=marks
Match to standard? Learning target?
A3a - Grading diff products for each S might be a nightmare...
Exactly! I look back at my schooling and I chased points. Now as a teacher I find myself learning, thus learning more.
A3: S and P's look at all work in gradebk; Formative is info for parents to help see how it's going
YES< Ask student what "product" shows they hit said Target!
Projects that allow choice for delivery always yield better outcomes. https://t.co/kuw0wfkIDm
A3) We should grade the skills, not the task.
A student should never feel punished with a grade. The feedback is the needed communication at every point.
I don't put all in the gradebk but I collect it & put a mark on it.My Sts don't seem to realize that not all is graded. :)
Either is fine with me. Just show me your best work.
A3 Great point-- Fair is not always equal!
It might, might not ... I know some teachers that grade daily work, that is a nightmare to me
Empowering our students to take ownership over their grades and be able to reflect on their growth is vital.
I do think this is helpful for S & P's to see progress & see if work is being done at all. No work can = lack of mastery.
True. I see the benefit with offering a few options of “products.”
Q4: How do we get students/Parents to look past the grade and focus on the learning?
For me, I give lots of feedback without marks... marks come toward the end of the learning cycle.
On the report card, we have a statement to tell the students what the grade in our class is a reflection of. Simple but powerful.
Feedback is needed everyday for students, marks are only needed for the report cards
These key conversations need to happen not just with students, but with parents too. We also need need a change in mindset at home.
A3 Formative for staff too-- Formative assessment for learning Summative assess of learning!
In some cases, they do have the ability to grade themselves. We have worked a lot on the self-actualization process.
A4: don't put so much emphasis on the report card. Have students share their growth at conferences...not their percentage.
A4: Get rid of honor rolls.
Give a mark and some feedback on an assignment....
First thing a S looks at is the mark...
Second thing, is their friend's mark
A4 Most beneficial to focusing on learning, not grading is to remove A-F or % scales as part of feedback/reporting process.
A4 Very hard, as most have experience with points and letters, not mastery of skills. Need to constantly do PR & focus on learning.
So sorry! Just got kids in bed & jumping in late from Katy, TX. Looks like great discussion so far.
A4: I focus on conversations about learning, doing work for future use and not worrying about a mark on paper
A4: Maybe a standard based report would get the students and parents looking past the grade.
A4 Focus on feedback. Ss/Parents might not understand the difference between a 75 and a 85
A4: through school wide policies so the Ts speak the same language about what a grade is. Then time for the culture to change.
We just use the comment blog on Schoology, but most report systems have places for it. Could even be a word doc.
A4: Ideally, eliminate the grade. If we can't do that, communicate, communicate, communicate regarding progess toward goal.
A4: Communicate, communicate communicate this as our culture. Make it your mantra. Students will buy in. https://t.co/KR4LTyOPGQ
Maybe we should give assignments that isn't right/wrong stuff... then help Ss learn by giving feedback.
Maybe ... many districts that use SBG still require a letter grade
There is some value to honor rolls, but adding excellence in community values is important as well.
I just really started doing that. https://t.co/RmuR92Gyum
I don't put all in the gradebk but I collect it & put a mark on it.My Sts don't seem to realize that not all is graded. :)
great point - but teachers also must resist the temptation to reward with grades, even though we want them to succeed
A4: Focus students on WHAT they can do, not a mark on a page!
A5: This is a cross over from tonight, but grading policies can make or break
A4 For some we need to remove the main motivator the grade- do a project - let all have an A- then push learning/risk
A5: This is a cross over from tonight, but grading policies can make or break
YES< Grading policy leaves students fixed in their mindset and not striving for me
A4) Constant communication and. Consistent focus on learning and not "earning points." Conversations will begin to change.
Rewards and punishments with grades are only extrinsic and will never create real change. Push for more.
A4: Conversations with parents focus on SKILLS not grades
A4: The issue here is systemic from higher ed, down. Until higher ed finds diff way to "choose Ss" it will be hard to overcome.
If we're to make this shift... MOST IMPORTANT thing is to rethink WHAT our Ss are doing. The real shift here is Deeper learning!
IF only teachers could design the holes and pegs
A4: I stole from . Each Friday, S pick something they feel stronger in-or that made them happy https://t.co/5IInYNAs04
Easy to find the reasons why we can't change...
Hard to be the change we want to see!
Isn’t that the truth. https://t.co/jvxec6jA92
Easy to find the reasons why we can't change...
Hard to be the change we want to see!
A4:Just read this: water, soil, other substances on their own can be understood. When combined, look like mud.
Grades are like mud!
Question 5 on the way soon
A4: I'm consistently communicating this in my class & to Ps. They understand where I'm coming from but aren't drinking the Kool-Aid.
grades are like mud! love that quote
I'm using this! https://t.co/0pFuxB1lTm
A4:Just read this: water, soil, other substances on their own can be understood. When combined, look like mud.
Grades are like mud!
Q5: What is one thing Teachers can change about grading that helps student learning?
Paraphrased from Improving Student Learning by Lee Jenkins (p. 213) https://t.co/Lo6xUjBdBK
I'm using this! https://t.co/0pFuxB1lTm
A4:Just read this: water, soil, other substances on their own can be understood. When combined, look like mud.
Grades are like mud!
So true. Def not trying to be neg, just real. We have to keep pushing for the change & model where we are. https://t.co/Dj7Y9ynbKZ
Easy to find the reasons why we can't change...
Hard to be the change we want to see!
It’s a process to move from talking about grades to talking about growth. S's are the ones who should do the talking.
A4 Cool Q- A miler runs a 5min mile. Stated at 10- I their mile time 5 or an average of the other times too?
A5: Grade skills over time, not quick snapshots of learning process
Don't make the grade the end all be all. Make the students progress, stamina, and resilience the focus of learning. Encourage growth
Great point! https://t.co/Ze7pgKeND5
It’s a process to move from talking about grades to talking about growth. S's are the ones who should do the talking.
As long as KNOWING stuff is what we want, marks will be all Ss care about.
If Thinking & Creativity are stressed, change will happen
A4: Each time we assess, we review quickly why we use formatives or the purpose of learning and how it's not to worship a number.
Q5; Quit with the busy work already!
A5: liberal but intentional retake policies. Don't just erase and write down new As. Make it a process to show learning.
A5 feedback. Ss need to know what their grade means and we asses their learning. This will empower Ss to participate in own learning
Since we all carry google in our pocket: WE all know stuff so that has to change
A5: Is it possible to get rid of marking periods? They seem to get in the way…
Have to check out-- thanks for the great chat and ideas-learned much tonight!
A5: Empower students. Give voice & choice in learning. Communicate the goal as learning & stick to assessing the learning. Feedback!
I think this is a good start w/ the goal to eventually wean kids off the grade dependency & be transparent
Talk to . His school does it.
Some schools have, talk to
Great response! https://t.co/v92rS1Zxan
A5: Empower students. Give voice & choice in learning. Communicate the goal as learning & stick to assessing the learning. Feedback!
A5: Set clear targets & focus on most recent evidence in relation to the targets.
or who wants to help in creating change
A5: Give less grades and more authentic, timely feedback.
Hey …I hear your school doesn’t have marking periods… do tell…do tell…
Nothing says stop learning on February 18th like the end of the quarter. Learning shouldn't stop at an arbitrary date.
a5 I'm late.. Teachers can give students ops to improve.
This is not only a time saver, but it boosts student growth immensely. https://t.co/7fLWo1hdoT
A5: Give less grades and more authentic, timely feedback.
Totally agree, HOW many grades does a student need to show learning?
Better late than never, Good to see you Art
Yes...and we must change the purpose of grades from being a classroom currency to ONLY communicating achievement
And nothing says…we need to cover this unit in order to get a test in by Feb 18th like the end of a quarter… https://t.co/pqZjLIf0aW
Nothing says stop learning on February 18th like the end of the quarter. Learning shouldn't stop at an arbitrary date.
A5b: Stop writing grades on tests when returning them. Highlight missed Qs & allow Ss to work out what they did wrong w/ others.
a5 and know that we aren't a grade making co. We teach and measure performance. What kids need is feedback way more than grades.
I feel no work should have a Grade on it, Students should be just given feedback
"Targets" is an interesting thing to me...
If we want Ss to think and be creative, how specific/clear are the targets?
Haven't shifted grading policies in your school/district yet? No excuses for leadership. The trailblazing has been done.
A5 Make all conversations with Ss and Ps about learning, not about grades; redirect focus for Ss benefit
Pacing guides and marking periods get in the way of real learning
Final Q of the night coming up
A5: Switch 2 formative & retakes to help start understanding- learning can be done at different paces & doesn't always have to hurt
Pacing guides are so harmful to the process of learning in general.
Q6: What is one thing you will do in the next week to improve your grading practice at your school?
Yes!! Difficult to get there when there are minimum requirements on grades.
I like to see creativity in how targets are reached. I was often surprised by how my students demonstrated understanding.
A6: We have a formative assessment next week, where students have many choices to show their knowledge
A6: I hope to make more choices for my students to SHOW learning
❤️ it.Need to provide S w/ clear rubric of meeting & exceeding standard to guide S selection process
The faster teachers grade and return papers the easier it is for students to learn from the grade.
a6 I like the idea of giving fewer grades but more feedback and more ops to do it better.
A6: Working on a video to help parents understand our move to SBG.
thanks everyone! Need to go a little early to tonight. Happy Weekend!
