#musedchat Archive
Each Monday evening at 8PM EST, music teachers get together and share ideas about important topics within music education. It’s a great chance to interact directly with educators from all over the world and to get new tips and tricks to help you succeed in the classroom. The entire #musedchat discussion is organized and moderated by Joe Guarr.
Monday October 17, 2016
Welcome to ! Our topic tonight is gender stereotypes in music education. Be sure to introduce yourself!
Hey everyone! Jason, Choral & Theatre teacher from MA!
Hi Jason, how are you tonight?
Joe, MS/HS band and music tech, Michigan.
Hangin’ in there, man. Being a first year teacher again certainly is a an eye-opener. :-)
Good to see you all tonight! Aubrey, 5th-8th orchestra in Colorado!
I bet! How many years were you at your previous gig?
Welcome to the chat Aubrey, how are you tonight?
Greetings! Amy from MI. Middle school band.
Hey Amy, how's your Monday?
Hi All! Amy, K-5 general music (on a cart) from MN!
Burton Hable. 6-12 Band as part of a team of 5 in Ankeny, IA. Jumping in from our booster meeting.
Almost over. :) Gearing up for Round 2 of p/t conferences tomorrow.
Welcome to the chat Amy, glad you could join us!
Sarah M choir/gen music grades 5-8 I'm from WI. Hi everybody!
Good to see you Burton, how are you tonight?
Hi Everyone! 5-6 band orchestra teacher from Illinois
Glad you could join us tonight Sarah, welcome!
Good to have you with us tonight!
9-12 band director chiming in
Q1: What gender stereotypes have you personally experienced as a music educator/musician?
Good evening! Melissa, 4-6 band teacher in Central NY
Welcome, good evening to you!
Hi Melissa, thanks for joining us
Can we make disclaimer that we’ll try not to offend tonight & anything said out of ignorance is purely that, not malice?
A1: I haven't experienced a ton (vln isn't a highly stereotyped inst), but I always seem to have more girls than boys in orch.
A1: I'm a low brass player, so I've def run up against instrument choice stereotypes
A1 persistent gender stereotyping when it comes to Ss instrument choices. Deeply engrained for some reason.
A1: Have been told that women don't work out as secondary instrumental teachers.
A1: Tough. I feel like, if I’ve been stereotyped, I’ve been blind to it, which is kind of sad and not very self-aware of me.
Absolutely. https://t.co/yLzO3oCFz4
Can we make disclaimer that we’ll try not to offend tonight & anything said out of ignorance is purely that, not malice?
Def heard that for high school!
Encounter that one every fall with beginners. Boys don't want to play "girl" instruments.
Maybe this is me stereotyping, but I thought it was unusual the year I had 28 beginning viola players, mostly the "cool" boys.
A1: It does seem that there was a time when there were more male secondary ensemble directors. Maybe still the case?
A1: I see this morning in band than orchestra for some reason. Girls on flutes-boys on low brass
Instrument choice is a frequent one.
Why the instrumental choice stereotype? Is this something that is taught, and - if so - where?
Found so I can chat with other music teachers.
For years I perceived an "old boys network" of hs instrumental directors. Thankfully that has begun to change in recent years.
A1:personally, not much (flute player, female el music).But I get a lot of "singing is for girls." I do what I can to change that
I've found some parents call them "boy" or "girl" instruments
True story. Happened while I was student teaching.
My guess is it's passed down from parents in a lot of cases. Feels like an "old school" point of view.
Jumping in late! Long time reader, first time tweeter! 5-12 Band in Buhler, KS!
A1. Perception that choir is for girls not guys. Fight hard against this with my Ss.
Welcome to the chat, glad you could join us tonight
A1: Recruiting men for chorus can be daunting, depending on the school. Definitely a stigma there…
Still get this vibe at some events, but agree that it seems to be turning around.
Especially tough for MS boys with their changing voices.
I would agree with that in my childhood, girls on high wood winds, boys on brass...I'm a flutist.
Re: ins choice, I agree that often parents as students have boy/girl instruments in mind. So frustrating!
Sorry I'm late I fight every year with beginners to convince Ps it is ok for their boy to play flute or girl t-bone
Band of 65 students. 15 flutes. Not a single boy on flute. Every other instrument is diverse. Definitely gender stereotyping...
Good evening to you, sir!
I did use the videos as recruitment tools this year- videos with good representation of male/female students
I think I've got 1 male flautist out of roughly 30 in my building. Most I've ever had was 2.
I actually have 3 of 6 flutes in one of my beginner classes that are boys this year!
Q2: Why do you think so many of these stereotypes still persist today?
I'm a huge fan of gender choirs. Or @ least performing a guys number & a girls number @ some pt during the yr.
Oh! Almost missed ! Jocelyn, HS Band & Vocal teacher in Toronto, ON. Happy to read through what I missed.
High school level? MS level? Both?
Welcome to the chat, Jocelyn!
Our school has gender based choirs for 7th/8th grade. Really seems to work well for Ss.
We have gone to "fitting" Ss without Ps present first so we can get them excited about their choice- let their enthusiasm sell
A2: someone already mentioned this, but parent influence!
A2: Fewer role models? Parents/adult influence? It's certainly there by the time they begin in 5th grade.
A2: Norms! I try to communicate early and often to P’s & S’s about instrument choices. Should be based on interest and success!
Both. It allows you Ts to work w/unique vocal changes in the different voices as well as soc/emot differences.
A2: Somebody earlier used the term "old boys' club". Our field can definitely be resistant to change at times.
A2: Don't think there's one good reason. Generational ideas, fewer models, perceptions from non-musicians.
A2: It would be remiss not to say that it’s at least partially societal.
A2: some of what I see is fear. When Ps were in school girls played "X" boys played "Y" they just want the best - unending cycle
A2: I think it also has to do with what Ss and Ps see in movies and on tv ...
we have them at our high school. Doesn't work w/ ms schedule. 😢
That would be my guess, too.
A2: peer pressure works both ways with this; usually more successful if I have more than one boy on fl, more than one girl on trb
A2: Media and publications continue to publish stereotypes.
I send elem Ss videos of each gender on each Inst to keep choices equal
A2: Also, instr. tone colour starts to "match"'personality a bit! "Quieter" instr. = "girly" choice?
A2.1: Also see negative perceptions of men teaching elementary. Suspicious of men wanting to work w/ kids.
A2 I don't see the gender stereotyping deterring young women from instrument choices as much as young men.
A2 society has grown up, but not enough. There is still a lot of educating to do on our pts until it really has become norm.
This definitely seems like a societal thing. Fewer men teaching elementary in any subject.
Wonder if that's because masculinity is treated as some huge, sacred thing, not to be compromised. "Boys don't cry"
Antoine here from Vaughan Ontario Canada, Concert Marching Band and Drumline Director. What did I miss?
How are you tonight, Antoine?
A1 Guys can't play flute and girls can't play drums or the tuba
powerful indeed. Prevents students from experiencing quite a bit...
Sorry I'm late ! Sarah, k-5 music/band/chorus in MA - catching up now
Good evening to you Sarah!
Q3: What can we do to encourage our students to break/ignore these stereotypes?
A1: the "flute diva" trope -
a2: popular culture perpetuates them. "This one time at band camp..."
A4. Give lots of role models breaking those stereotypes.
A3: Find models to break through the stereotypes for kids. YouTube is a GREAT tool!
Who are your favorite non-stereotypical role models? https://t.co/YWQ4GMnAWe
A4. Give lots of role models breaking those stereotypes.
A3 playing tests before instrument assignments..look at students body type/mouth shape
A3: encourage Ss to find the instrument that speaks to them WE need to communicate to Ps how exciting it will be to play
A3: I like bringing in older kids to show off what they know! Make and female in band and choir.
A2 straight up ignorance no malice just ignorance
a3: show students the diversity of musicians! Not just gender, but all sorts of people who are musicians
Carol Jantsch, Velvet Brown, Bones Apart (female tbn 4tet), the great Marin Alsop...
A3: Contemporary a cappella’s done a lot to bridge the gap for gender stereotypes in choral settings.
oh I would love some examples! From anyone? This has YouTube playlist written all over it.
A3: Lots of what everyone else has said. Really encourage & educate Ss & Ps about picking what THEY like, what fits THEIR body.
A4 Continue to discuss w/ Ss making choices that are "right for you" not choices based on friends opinions.
A3: that should be MALE not make!
Benny Goodman, Sir James Galway, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Esperanza Spalding
Love showing videos from Greg Patillo to break through the "flute is for girls" stereotypes.
A3 gotta start young with exposure to the diversity of making music both instrumentally and vocally.
A3: Bringing in professionals always helps. A female bass, a male flute quintet, a female jazz trio, etc…
A3: Ts have to support and encourage every Ss choice
He's the beatboxing guy, right?
Correct. They love the combo of music they recognize along with the beatboxing.
A3: when I have female LB students, I tend to recruit them. It's cyclical! Less success w males/WW
For one, I use examples of athletes singing in choirs.
a4 YOUTUBE YOUTUBE of good male flautists ie James Galway, or good brass performances by a females https://t.co/yq7eMRlUG5
During the NCAA Final Four this year, they had athletes from each school sing the anthem. It was great
The Super Bowl choir. Made up of all former and current players.
When I'd have the HS Ss go to the elem, I'd have them wear their jerseys. Great visual.
I can't put on Galway without cringing - but yes male flute players!
When S’s see older S’s walking the walk 😮😮 https://t.co/6MLST81ZMJ
For one, I use examples of athletes singing in choirs.
I've done this too! Helps show that you can be involved in different things.
This is a GREAT idea! https://t.co/t0VTDlfdDN
When I'd have the HS Ss go to the elem, I'd have them wear their jerseys. Great visual.
My Ss were OBSESSED with a pic of Team USA gymnasts singing the SSB - asked for copies!
Esperanza Spaulding on bass. James Galway on flute.
Sorry I'm late...but I'm a female tuba player and my Ss don't think it's weird. I have a male flautist now!
just moved into a new position. Heard "big job... For a woman." Just this June. For real.
it's awesome when they can see that it's ok to have multiple talents & interests
Carol Jantsch on tuba. LOOKITUP
ABSOLUTELY! Be your own person. Follow your own passions!
Ugh. I got something like "when you start having babies you won't worry so much about this band directing thing."
How do you even respond to something like that?
And I'm another one. Maybe it's just me and my personality, but no one questions it.
At the time, I didn't say much. I was a student teacher and he was a retired director.
that is so frustrating to even hear. That still happens?!
It was discussed in our methods courses. Not in a negative way (1/2)
More of a "these attitudes unfortunately still exist, you'll have to deal w/ it eventually"
Also, Deanna Swoboda on tuba. Boss lady.
I vaguely remember it coming up, but was still shocking to encounter directly.
I had some good warning from my HS director (female), but still...
This discussion was around 2007 for me...
