#ukedchat Archive
Join teachers and educationalists for #ukedchat each Thursday between 8-9 pm GMT for Edu chat. Education news, resources, and @UKEdSch website with @UKEdMag
Thursday April 14, 2016
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A1 Elements of both - when you walk round a prospective school you need to feel you could work there,but can also bring fresh eyes
That you can work there?Can pick up an ethos from talking to staff showing you round,talking to chn,looking at website
Aww… Thanks for dropping in though
Time to get involved in the hosted tonight by
Do you mean you get a gut feeling?
A1- You have to be able to adapt to work in an environment that has its own unique ethos for all learners and staff
https://t.co/J6ZaFnhNdP
I think its a two way process. Not only you need to be right for the school but also fit into the school and its ethos.
To a degree, yes. Also need to go for a look round with key qs in mind-personal non negotiables
depends what level you're entering the school at - a class teacher needs to initially adapt to how the school works
adaptation is good. How do you know if the school is adaptable?
a1 a bit of both. Ideally you shouldn't change too much to fit a school as there will be a school that fits you.
Q1. Even more challenging,we need to try to change the school,fight to make it better in all senses,then the school will fit you
The school trying new avenues to success, not afraid to reach out to the community and work with the most vulnerable
NQT? UPS? easier said then done sometimes.
a HT or DHT arriving has a greater capacity to change the way the school works in a shorter timeframe
This is why it's so important to look round-I've visited and then decided not to apply in the past.
The school is missing something, which is why they hired the staff member, so sch will/should change.
How do they know they are missing something? data? Feelings amongst staff?
in a Primary setting, probably - in a secondary setting dept. heads have more ability to make changes
yes, easier said than done. But teaching is very personal thing and moulding yourself completely to fit a school is 😟
better to believe in the schools vision than put up with it. This way the school will probably believe in you. It's about buy in
to reach out to the community but sometimes lose their focus of education and money matters
A2 With every new staff member a sch changes to some degree-diff dynamics,passions,strengths
what about if the school is one that needs change?
a class teacher can drive changes and have an impact once they're settled and have established a reputation for themselves
Everyone can influence the climate or ethos of a school for the better or worse.
That's the $64,000 question. If you could answer that and get the perfect balance of skills the school would be superb
Good evening , here for 1st time - hoping to connect with teachers who can help us with some research into classroom
Avoided the Ofsted term on purpose. :-)
agreed, but over different timescales. Senior management can drive change much quicker than class teachers
They can do it from day 1 by the way they talk, listen, smile, interact with staff and children https://t.co/Ica2kPjDb2
a class teacher can drive changes and have an impact once they're settled and have established a reputation for themselves
https://t.co/FLdBJUYhJY
then the first thing is to establish a vision where buy in is likely. One that stakeholders believe is possible and desirable.
a2 who effects change depends on leadership style within school and how much collaborative working is valued.
For some-myself included-this is a welcome challenge.
True, but class teachers actually make it happen https://t.co/2rig8Vh3KF
agreed, but over different timescales. Senior management can drive change much quicker than class teachers
A2- New Leadership and Permanent Staff can bring stability, new visions and a culture for learning and progress in correct amounts
Indeed. But influence is greater higher up the food chain. Mavericks in the lower orders are not often welcomed.
is this achievable though?
in 'good' schools with 'good' leadership, definitely!
Hello. Sorry for lateness. A1 Mutual chemistry I would say. It can't be one without the other
it is if you go to a school you believe in!!
Keep up to date with new free computing planning subscribe to https://t.co/oSVUH7Rg4i like Scratch Jr Story for KS1
also, a forward thinking school will employ the staff to help move them forward through changes in practice
do you always want more of the same? Staying the same is not always good. Also damaging for new staff member
Look forward to you joining in next time. We're here every week!
IMPROVEMENT=CHANGE development+change EVOLUTION=CHANGE -if we & schools don't change they become extinct! https://t.co/U5gRCrOmrb
How does a school change when they appoint new staff? does it change?
I am in a school which has a vision I believe in. That's what drives me.
A2 Schools always subject to change at micro & macro level, but ppl change, too. All relationships change eg marriages or children
I've taught in both types...unhappy when ethos poor..happy when matched to me!
This should always be the case, ultimately a school should be there to serve the needs of the students https://t.co/MARERVx3OC
Everyone can influence the climate or ethos of a school for the better or worse.
The inability of education & schools to CHANGE means too few people have the skills to cope with CHANGE! https://t.co/TQlUAhDGqh
Senior staff drive change quicker who bring a fresh outlook to the school.
definitely. I think it is so, so important.
forward thinking schools will always change and move forward, with good leadership the change can be driven from top or bottom
so its about getting a school that matches you? not one that you can change/influence ethos?
village school was just me....so happy there...took a leading role rather than gritting teeth!
A2 each member of staff brings a different individual dimension to the culture and ethos of a school, but still collective
Stagnant school's surely only appeal to stagnant teachers and can only have one result?
Yes, and no. If environment changes, some ppl may no longer like it... They will find it a change for worse.
Do you think there is ever a time or place for cultures to change to accommodate that “special someone”?
If it works, why change it?
having children definitely changes everything! Very hard to maintain long hours with a young family
Also up to SLT to skilfully appoint new staff in order to encourage change for the better - in line with future vision
Everyone can bring something to the party! https://t.co/qq2FN1jCNU
forward thinking schools will always change and move forward, with good leadership the change can be driven from top or bottom
Q2. The schools have to change in many ways.We have to help students to be able to think and create by themselves,
depends on role..as manager can influence more than just being a small cog! :)
every interaction reflects a school's collective culture, ethos and values. Or, they should.
Agreed… But isn’t it easier to bring something to the table if you are SLT. What about if you are an NQT
depends on your direction. Somebody may wish to effect change in a leadership position.
in my experience it only changes when you show it in practice. Demonstrate the value with your class- SLT will notice
Wise words https://t.co/byJwADwnNW
every interaction reflects a school's collective culture, ethos and values. Or, they should.
Very True! Often the right change is needed to freshen things up to uplift morale
how can we combat this? change it?
if it works it's the best time to change - because there'll be a positive attitude
but the sector changes, we have to change to stand still. Don't change, get left behind!
could be coz of relationships, stress, personal issues that affect your view and the outlook on the school.
Our young people need to learn the 21st century skills to cope with CHANGE-not just EXAM FACTORIES https://t.co/dStzJjCTgi
show them how an app like and explain everything can be a quick way to show progress visually for all abilities
Yes. And that makes ppl change but also within a relationship we change. We develop. So priorities change.
Agreed. Easier said then done though? Strategies for getting noticed?
not in a school, staff have to be a team and everyone needs to be a team player
Yes, and for some it is ok to move on...
all people thrive when they are comfortable with the ethos and values of the place they work.
show amazing progress in a difficult area like writing with then the whole school will want it next year
The way everyone behaves towards each other makes a massive difference to a school. https://t.co/jdKrOCTpCS
Agreed… But isn’t it easier to bring something to the table if you are SLT. What about if you are an NQT
if based on sound values and principles should be able to accommodate individual. Values only values if you live them.
absolutely, I used to work every hour, now got 2 kids & have had to cut right back, kids grow up I'll devote time again
What if you have someone who isn’t playing as part of the team? https://t.co/eDLdLt2zIi
The way everyone behaves towards each other makes a massive difference to a school. https://t.co/jdKrOCTpCS
Agreed… But isn’t it easier to bring something to the table if you are SLT. What about if you are an NQT
A3 Priorities changed. Wanted to develop myself differently. Had a child.
I think you can go in enthusiastically but again comes down to ethos and negativity present
That takes courage.. Lots of people do not feel they can leave
Whole new conversation. Lead by example? Challenge and support? https://t.co/jAUpjLkFTS
What if you have someone who isn’t playing as part of the team? https://t.co/eDLdLt2zIi
The way everyone behaves towards each other makes a massive difference to a school. https://t.co/jdKrOCTpCS
Agreed… But isn’t it easier to bring something to the table if you are SLT. What about if you are an NQT
A3- Devote additional time where needed to further develop ideas and strategies to further enhance experiences for ALL learners
A3 I've become more patient! When there's things I'd like to change I prioritise-what is my main focus?
Yes, leaving difficult if you are sole or main earner for example
No, because I know I did my time busting myself - now it's family first, I'll get back to it as passion is always there
https://t.co/JMcNKOi3As
A3 I've become more patient! When there's things I'd like to change I prioritise-what is my main focus?
I was fortunate to get new job in village school...so happy there..we were like a family
school when a dedicated group willing to try new things rather than reverting to tried and tested
Being clear about collective values allows you to challenge behaviours that need to be challenged
Would be an interesting topic
thats a positive change as you will be more caring and have better relationships with pupils.
Q4. Do you think it is right for a school to change its approach to accommodate that special someone?
https://t.co/lLI0zijmCG
You have to adapt to your school environment and also be willing to try new ways of working. Change is positive if managed well.
Doing a project about coaching methods to improve T&L for a SLT course. What coaching models do you use in your schools?
Is change always positive though?
, agreed https://t.co/Brm4gmqPln
every interaction reflects a school's collective culture, ethos and values. Or, they should.
A4 I haven't seen that happen. And I don't think I would like it. Why preferential treatment for some if all work hard
Haven’t seen it done personally but I have heard from reliable sources that it happens
often some responsibility can get someone more involved as a team player - feeling valued is important too
A4- Learning institutions should make the effort to accommodate all individuals whilst ensuring it has the facilities & resources
It is not. Have seen vision being changed, that led to different intake. Some no longer have chance.
A4 Baby with bath water? You can incorporate good practice and develop with new staff member but shouldn't change whole ethos IMO
I think no as you cannot predict if that special someone will bring about positive change.
hugely complex q. To begin, current slt need to be open to shared leadership.
there is nothing better than working in a team with a shared ethos,work ethic and common purpose to help students be best they can
Friend of the Head? Friend of the Chair of Governors?
For me it is about equity. Who says who is special? We all work hard and put in hours.
I don't think so 'special people' often know, or think, they're special and they can be V. disruptive to a team, similar to sport
agree. But there is bias sometimes. How do you react if there is?
school approach should be able to accommodate individuality but not at the expense of collective values. We need teacher agency A4
A school should change to be able to offer the best educaction to every student. https://t.co/ITwP6LuE1t
Q4. Do you think it is right for a school to change its approach to accommodate that special someone?
https://t.co/lLI0zijmCG
totally agree and it might not be a positive outcome.
a good staff is like a good sports team, all pulling in the same direction and helping each other be as good as they can
no telling but there are stories of this happening.
Q4: Surely better to work on embedding good ideas, creativity etc before going for wholesale change
Knowing me, I would probably pipe up and ask for justification, which is the kind of thing I do.
Sometimes maverick teachers question established practice and shake things up that need shaking
the hallmarks of a quality educator
mmmm, depends on how they are special and who thinks that!
School leaders need to lead by example, be excellent practitioners and develop their teams.
Is this always achievable… being out of the classroom does distant SL
Q5. How do you insure that schools do not change for the worse just to accommodate that special someone? https://t.co/8Bz06Ahny8
Also, often that special person will not necessarily be a long term feature.
I couldn't agree more! https://t.co/mvAzKz0O9j
The way everyone behaves towards each other makes a massive difference to a school. https://t.co/jdKrOCTpCS
Agreed… But isn’t it easier to bring something to the table if you are SLT. What about if you are an NQT
being an NQT I don't know if I am stepping up a line
short term fix? one hit wonder?
A4 surely like a football team no player is bigger than the team or club?
A5 This is more to do for SLT i think
fine line as they often have opposite effect - nothing wrong with shaking things up but shouldn't get special treatment
I think schools evolve over time but an injection of new blood can revitalise
I imagine that principals or VPs would be 'headhunted' if they had a great impact on a school
A6 by having a@collaborative, open and supportive culture based on mutual respect and trust
A5- Ensure changes help secure reasonable progress without hindering the progress of whole school, others & the individual
can this be prevented? retention of staff?
surely they fit the person spec from staff audit. If 'different' is what you are looking for change is on the agenda.
Can be either. What works in one setting might not in another,or that person could be seconded to plug a gap
Is this right though… Plugging the gap?
A5 by listening to concerns of teachers and not being blinded by the aura of the special one
there's never a special someone. If that someone. Staff meetings should make rapid progress just like lessons
sometimes change is needed?
sometimes it can be collective moaning!!
students and staff thrive when they feel valued and share a common purpose.
Or trust heads are drafted in...
lots of people are drafted in sometimes… Overkill?
But changes not necessarily for better.
In some sits - SLT need to have retention plan - staff well being and value
if they're a good SLT they will see strengths and values in the strongest and weakest. We're all learning.
Great. I should do that next time I have an opinion about something :)
I agree, when recruiting you will often change the spec from the incumbent to affect change.
only had that once...special person was HT...drove us to edge of nervous breakdown!!
it is totally wrong.. but it happens
True, I am always cautious at school
No but there are situations,aren't there,where exec heads brought in short term to support sch going f'ward
get parents involved. They won't be happy if it's one teacher and class who are doing exciting things. They notice too
unless leadership is the problem!!
How can this be addressed?
shake up can be good but promotion from within displays great professional development
There still has to be long term thinking though https://t.co/VQknUy1gGJ
No but there are situations,aren't there,where exec heads brought in short term to support sch going f'ward
at points I have been both. Impact and move on,or long term driver. Context and need dependent.
were they special or did they think they were special? It's a big difference.
Nice one, yes! https://t.co/WSXUQh1zxr
if they're a good SLT they will see strengths and values in the strongest and weakest. We're all learning.
when HT brings in change...that's one thing...but when totally incompetent...well the person did leave
the right environment for each child. Inclusion is vital but not at the expense of others
Personal perceptions? Some people are good at acting and putting on a show
hard when out of your control!!
nothing wrong with being cautious when you're starting out - drive small changes by stealth
No - as I said in last tweet :-)
there must be strategies? Methods of improving?
that was exactly what this was...could talk but not walk! And how we all suffered!
when you can drive change with your classes. The pupils are keen to learn and the staff care about pupils
A6 I think you "know" it, there is chemistry there. I turned a school down on chemistry, nothing specific just not me
A6 can be easier to know when you are wrong for a school
Indeed - and this is why a whole sch shouldn't change for 1 person
understood. How can it be dealt with?
it takes brave leadership and sometimes tough decisions to ensure this doesn't happened!
A6- Praise from SLT, recognition for your work, feeling comfortable amongst colleagues around school and being appreciated by Ss
like that idea baby steps
when you walk round a school and can clearly visualise how you can make a positive difference. https://t.co/McyHp0ogum
When the team works! - all work together, share, support, learn from each other, drive change for the better together
Doesn't necessarily work, but happens!
Is this achievable with modern day pressures on Senior leaders
easier if not HT!! Especially one who didn't listen and cried a lot! :((
massive problem, especially when person is in position of power and hasn't self-awareness to spot mistakes
a positive different? Can you expand on this.
A6 I think you know you are right as soon as you go into a school. Almost like buying a house, it has the right atmosphere.
Totally agree. https://t.co/w2LGh2cRsf
When the team works! - all work together, share, support, learn from each other, drive change for the better together
had both!! Good person can make big difference
Tricky - in some unavoidable sits it needs to happen -again about well being and retention to reduce chances
I think positive difference as in you can add something to school, make it better for kids with clubs eg?
A6 When they listen and you listen. Communication is the key to success. Everybody has a place if demonstrate value.
A6 feedback from others and your confidence you are making a difference for all your learners. You experience professional 'flow'
yes, just need to get the right people at the top.
Once you have been there you know if you will love it. I visited a school before applying and didn't apply
The job of SLT is easier if everyone is pulling together for common purpose.
A6 You know when you're wrong for a sch - there may be elements you want to build but will be happy going in each day
Is this always realistic if you have pressure from above?
not specifically, no but it always goes back to the students. How will your being there impact on their learning?
indeed! My advice then is to leave as soon as you can. Poor leadership does not deserve best teachers
A6 It is a "gut feeling" - you know when a school is not right. Past experience key. https://t.co/9SEQyFxmkf
A6 I think you "know" it, there is chemistry there. I turned a school down on chemistry, nothing specific just not me
A7- When they contribute to the wider workings of a school, develop and maintain an ethos and can have a laugh with others
A7 Trickier! You know if the right person presented at interview, but only know if that person walks the walk once appointed
what happen if your gut lies?
and...behaviour of kids went downhill...
exactly, build a reputation with the staff as well as the kids. Respect = ability to influence
agreed, a manageable environment
In my experience students help you to know if you are 'right', their openess attitude, happiness will quickly inform your decision
What happens when the gut feeling is wrong?
a7 I'm not sure that a school can know for certain at appointment. So difficult to tell.
Involving kids in interviews is a good measure. Kids are very perceptive and you can see how candidates behave
yes, in every school I have worked in I got that sense on the initial visit/interview. It's not a quantifiable feeling.
Children are always honest
A6, A7 Sorry, joined late..what I have read so far seem like a lot of it relies on feelings, there must be something else?
sometimes it's the HT with small egos, low confidence where the cracks form and problems occur!
don't think really know for some months real proof in the longer term relationships with staff & pupils https://t.co/aiZw3rn9mR
Agreed, it's not quantifiable... you just know it is right or wrong! https://t.co/zPE4IeLlxn
yes, in every school I have worked in I got that sense on the initial visit/interview. It's not a quantifiable feeling.
unfortunately it happens - usually when people lack the ability to self-reflect
Is it too late then? Can this be avoided?
pupils know if the candidate will have chemistry which they get from that lesson
Tricky to decide whether or not it is running well. Vision & ethos vs Ofsted
always amazes me the amount of influence a HT can exert over a whole PS - good or bad
A motto to live your teaching life by. Ive picked many a wrong fight but always with the chn in mind https://t.co/x2WW4kEkaS
yes and pick your fights, but always fight for what is right
Well relationships are important in any job, is this what you mean?
