#DITCHbook was created by Ditch That Textbook author Matt Miller. The chat focuses on innovative teaching ideas and disrupting standard textbook education.
We're getting started with tonight's #DitchBook chat!
Matt here, Ditch That Textbook author/blogger/speaker, 10+yr HS Spanish teacher from home in Indiana.
Welcome to the chat!
Evening, #ditchbook. I'm Brian. I teach middle-school students English in Colorado. As for grades GIF, I'll defer to Elmo below. (They're part of what students & I do -- ideally, not too big a part.)
A1. I think a grade is a snapshot of what the Ss can do in a moment. Not the big picture. It also might not be indicative of what Ss can know and do. It can define Ss and really hinder potential #ditchbook
A1: It *should* mean giving students a benchmark from which to grow. Unfortunately, in my class, it's turned into a system of self-flagellation. Where kids kill themselves for a 4.0... and kill themselves again if they don't get it. #ditchbook
A1 A grade has a finality to it that does not invite iteration or improvement. It *should* represent mastery of content, but it often includes other (unrelated) elements of school life. Boo! #ditchbook
A1 I hope a grade communicates what Ss have mastered in our school and indicates what we will continue to work on to ensure the Ss learn it. #ditchbook
A1. I think a grade is a snapshot of what the Ss can do in a moment. Not the big picture. It also might not be indicative of what Ss can know and do. It can define Ss and really hinder potential #ditchbook
A1: What a grade means to colleges: ranking system.
What a grade means to (some) students: points to collect.
What a grade should mean: accurate reflection of student's proficiency.
What a grade ACTUALLY ends up being: haphazard collection of points. #DitchBook
A1: grades are supposed to stand for the level a student has mastered certain standards, but often grades are compliance or behavior related #ditchbook
A1: Grades should me the amount of knowledge a student has in a subject. When a college looks at an A, they assume the student knows 90% of the content. When in reality, that's not aways true. #DitchBook
A1: Usually compliance-for good grades-for others, maybe students who experienced barriers in the learning process or weren't able to express their creativity in a way that was engaging and meaningful to them #ditchbook
A1: What a grade means to colleges: ranking system.
What a grade means to (some) students: points to collect.
What a grade should mean: accurate reflection of student's proficiency.
What a grade ACTUALLY ends up being: haphazard collection of points. #DitchBook
A1 #ditchbook. Grades SHOULD mean the amount of mastery of a certian topic, but too often they mean how much they "comply" and how much home support there is...hoping to learn more tonight to change that!!!
A1: Grades are reflections of how a student is interacting with particular content at a specific time. It should be malleable and able to change as students revise knowledge. Unfortunately it usually is permanent with no time for revision for reflection. #ditchbook
A1 In theory, grade=symbol to represent something about learner who did work that got grade attached to it. In practice, grade represents bunch of different somethings to bunch of different people, which has led to whole lot baggage carried by that symbol. #ditchbook
Grades can mean different things to different schools/constituents. Perhaps the better Q is: What COULD grades mean? Imagine a grading system where grades are described by a narrative mixing proficiency and learning behaviors....not arrived at by %s exclusively. #ditchbook
A1 It depends who you ask. Any grade can be manipulated to reflect anything.
If HW is calculated, then the grade reflects support at home.
If test are weighted heavily, then grades reflect organization & perhaps memorization & stress management.
The list goes on.... #ditchbook
Wait! You mean a true reflection of my skill level of a standard isn't measured when I bring in Kleenexes for extra credit to make up the difference?! #ditchbook
In reply to
@MandiTolenEDU, @craigklement, @rlfreedm
A1 a grade should be an ongoing record of skills students are capable of or show they are working towards goals. Grades typically are an average score of often unrelated scores and sometimes non skill scores. #ditchbook
Grades can mean different things to different schools/constituents. Perhaps the better Q is: What COULD grades mean? Imagine a grading system where grades are described by a narrative mixing proficiency and learning behaviors....not arrived at by %s exclusively. #ditchbook
Agree. But don't you think that we miss the boat so often on valuing the process? The "grade" is the endpoint (semester, year, etc.) and does represent mastery of content. Generally speaking. ? #ditchbook
A2: Grades can over inflate students and give a false sense of security. They can also deflate a student and cause them to give up and and stop trying. I try to make grades a reflection of how hard students worked to master a standard or concept. #ditchbook
Grades inhibit S performance IF they are limited to measuring demonstrated proficiency. If they describe learning behaviors with limited reference to performance (or with chance at re-assessment), "grades" can be useful. #ditchbook
A1: What a grade means to colleges: ranking system.
What a grade means to (some) students: points to collect.
What a grade should mean: accurate reflection of student's proficiency.
What a grade ACTUALLY ends up being: haphazard collection of points. #DitchBook
A1: A grade means: level of schooling, quality of product, level of mastery, steepness of a hill. When it comes to EDU, it is used to assess performance / proficiency, originally. :) #DitchBook
A2 Grades often give the students the message that they are not measuring up 😞 For students with learning differences grades often steal their motivation and self esteem #ditchbook
A2 But DO they impact student performance??? I think some students are motivated to comply and achieve “good grades.” Others are discouraged and tune school out. Some don’t care either way. #DitchBook
Hello! I am Samantha, attending Trinity Christian College.
A1. A grade indicates your level of performance with work you do in your class. They are symbols used to represent the effort that was put into their work. #ditchbook#aedu209
Yet many compliance-based grading systems relegate students to passenger seats (which leads many students to plant themselves there out of habit). #ditchbook
A1: A grade is a number between 0-100 that kids care about more than actually learning. A kid would rather get a 100 and not retain anything vs getting a 90 and raising his/her IQ. Not their fault - the system has created this. GPA > retention #Ditchbook
In reply to
@MrSiverioITRT, @MandiTolenEDU, @rlfreedm
A2: Grades can make or break a student. I think we get so wrapped up in assigning a tally, that we forget the true learning takes place when students are able to edit, change, or re-do an assignment. I am also guilty of this, too. It's a major shift, but beneficial. #ditchbook
A2- It depends on the ss. But many ss look at it and place it in their book bag. What needs to done is feedback as the students are working on the assignments not a couple days after!
#DitchBook
A2: Grades impact student performance in many ways ...
👉 Encourage them to improve their skills
👉 Encourage them to chase points
👉 Find their deficiencies so they can improve
👉 Find loopholes so they can game the system
#DitchBook
Agree that identifying learning behaviors can be of great value. They can add depth to the process, which a "grade" doesn't likely do. I would like to see all 'grades' come in the form of narrative feedback. #ditchbook
A2: option 1 - creates an impossible standard of perfection; option 2 - makes them feel inadequate, so that "giving up" in the classroom is an easier decision. #ditchbook
A2: Some students will be motivated by every single point so they can get their A, others are indifferent, others don't care at all. Some will be devastated by a low score, others will celebrate if it's higher than what they are used to, so there are lots of impacts. #ditchbook
A2. Grades can impact student performance by either motivating them to do better or sometimes has the opposite effect and defeats them. #ditchbook#aedu209
A2. In many Ss minds the grade is all that matters. Those who get good ones go for more... those who get low ones give up... neither consider learning much if at all. #ditchbook
A1: Follow up, are we as an education system moving towards Mastery Grading? With grading practices being scrutinizing lately (for a good reason) is time to say goodbye to past practices? #DitchBook
A2: #ditchbook It depends on the student....in many cases I say how do grades impact the PARENTS, because how much they value a grade will influence how students do.
Yup! I wasn’t there 😂 but I’m assuming when grades were “invented” the intention was to measure learning/mastery. Not to be a collection of points as @jmattmiller said. #DitchBook
In reply to
@craigklement, @rlfreedm, @TTmomTT, @jmattmiller
Q2: Grades allow the student, or teacher, to quickly determine their mastery of a concept. Using that grade, the student and teacher and discuss next steps in either (a) raising the grade or (b) enriching their learning #DitchBook
A2: The impact of student performance varies. For some it drives them to perform at a higher level, others are stressed out by them, some have performance anxiety, & some are completely disinterested and don't perform at all. #DitchBook
A2 Grades can be such a source of anxiety-a quest to reach the highest score or attain "perfection" to some, to others, that they didn't make the cut, and a source of disappointment. The failing grade percentage is such a large range too- 60% or below- #ditchbook
I'm thinking less say in behavior (though some amount of co-created descriptors might prove worthwhile) & more self-assessment of student-created artifacts in relation to models, mentor texts, iterations of own work from before. Teacher coaching & feedback's integral #ditchbook
A2: Ss decide their value of the class and teacher strictly based on grades. If they finish the year with a bad grade, “the T never taught us anything.” If they finish with a 100, “it was easy.” Can’t win! #DitchBook
A3: Gradeless is a bit extreme in my opinion. How grades are assigned can be modified significantly. My degree program I am currently working on is a pass/fail grade, you meet the requirements, you pass, you don't meet all of them, you redo what you need to pass #ditchbook
There is a need for grades. At some point, Ss need to be given feedback about their performance against a standard. The Q is: WHEN or how frequently should grades be given? Only at semester? Mid-terms? Every assessment? Every day? #ditchbook
R3) Classrooms should do away with traditional grading, however, having some type of measure to indicate student achievement is necessary (standards based perhaps) #ditchbook
A2: Sometimes students get so focused on what is being "graded," that they totally forget about how amazing everything else they're doing is. You obviously have to take grades, but let's look at the entire picture! #ditchbook
A3. YES! I have been gradeless in the 5th grade for 3 years and I see how Ss respond when they are in charge of their learning, have input, opportunity to grow, and build on feedback. #ditchbook
A3: Would the focus be more on improvement if we went gradless? I think so ...
Would colleges and some parents riot if they didn't have grades to measure? Yep, pretty sure.
Would ill-informed politicians try to derail it because they don't understand it? I bet yes. #DitchBook
Both. School and Post-Secondary has perpetuated it. Because of that, parents now expect an A even if the student hasn't yet demonstrated this level of proficienty. #ditchbook
A3: I would love to see classrooms go gradeless, but I think it needs to be done gradually-both for parents and students. When making a big switch there needs to be time for adjustment. #ditchbook
A3 I think the reasoning for gradeless should be adopted.
-emphasis on LEARNING
-feedback is meaningful
-Ts focused on students learning content
#ditchbook
I think grades can sometimes prevent students from taking risks because if they fail they don’t want to hurt their grade or upset their Ps. And for some they just checkout because good grades has never happened for them. Good grades are the wrong motivator. #ditchbook
A3. No classrooms should not go gradeless. This is how students become motivated, they can promote to different clubs for good grades, and grades are the reason students get into better colleges. #ditchbook#aedu209
A3: There must be some kind of assessment otherwise how would you know if the Ss have understood or mastered the basic learning? I am still for grades albeit with less emphasis on the aim to be perfect #ditchbook
I think both- but the root cause is that grading systems tend to focus less on learning and more on “scores.” Changing school and home cultures would fix some of the problem. Need to stop looking at grades as “good or bad.” #DitchBook
A3: #ditchbook I think we need "grades" of some sort...evaluations, benchmarks, etc...but I'd like to see a separate system for GRIT. One of our other local MS introduces a GRIT score that was alongside the letter grade at conferences, and Ts, Ss, and Parents LOVED it!
A3: this is my struggle-bus. Too much emphasis is placed on the score and not whether a student learned or grew academically. But, how else can we uniformly see academic levels? #TrueQuestion#ditchbook
A3: I think so... The students I've seen who improve as a result of reaching for the highest grade are few and far between. For most, it's a penalty system. They define themselves by the grade - not the growth. #ditchbook
A2 I think letter grades impact students to strive to do their best, so that they can be successful with the work they are putting into their assignments. #ditchbook#aedu209
A2 If used as a checkpoint, with clearly articulated learning goals, Ss can revisit content and grow. But if grades are always an end-point, then the learning is over. And these grades impact student self-concept big time. #ditchbook
That’s sometimes true, although my wife and I devalue grades while our 9th-grade daughter is bothered by anything below an A. If the school devalued then too, she wouldn’t be as focused on them. #DitchBook
The issue is grades as “payment” for work done... only works if kids value the method of payment, either way the focus is not on the learning #ditchbook
A3: Grades (in a small way) help some teachers stay on track w/ specific standards/goals/content they're required to cover. Might be hard for teachers if grades were taken away over night. You still need to monitor progress and be aware of where students are working. #ditchbook
A3: I think this would be a huge culture shift. If something like this were attempted, I am not sure how much of a welcomed change it would be. #ditchbook
A3: I agree that a no-grade system may be too extreme. There’s got to be accountability. But I’m all in to hear an alternative or a way to redefine the current system #ditchbook
Q3: Two part answer: A district changes the letter grade "F" to an "E." What was accomplished? The "E" still means the same thing as an "F," you just started making "E" the bad guy. Let's ditch the grades! #ditchbook
Honestly my philosophy from 6-12 revolved around keeping my test averages high enough so that I can completely #DitchHomework and still get A’s B’s. I wasn’t a slacker- I was efficient 😂 #DitchBook
A3: Ss and Ts need some form of way to evaluate learning. Every other profession has a way to evaluate performance. But more importantly, to track growth #Ditchbook
A3. Not sure if gradeless is necessary but grading less is
And involving Ss in discussion and evaluation of their learning against a standard/target is more effective than ABCDF, etc #ditchbook
A3: I think people need to clearly define what gradeless means. Some are abandoning grades, but not replacing it with other forms of feedback. Students need to know what they know and what they need more practice with. #ditchbook
I'll be reading #DitchBook Tweets later. Wanted to join in and follow live but had finally go through Halloween candy and now have to resume (ironically enough) grading. Conferences next week. #wheresmsrnow
A3: HS classes have a harder time being gradeless due to the need for GPA for college applications/addmittance and scholarships, Those systems need to change before high schools can fully change. #DitchBook
A3: To be honest, this is very tough. I work on a campus with a very traditional upper-middle class client base, and the parents/administration would have more trouble with this than the students. Idk how to approach that. #ditchbook
Yes, because this is life and crisis comes in every point of peoples lives. It happens and it's unfortunate but they need to learn how to adjust. I can see giving them a second chance under certain circumstances, but then it becomes using this as an excuse #ditchbook
A3 I think the amount of learning and risk taking would be much greater if we went gradeless. I’d like to see a running record of what students are working on and towards with a celebration of goals met. #ditchbook
I worked in a district that several levels of diplomas, basically endorsing kids to take tougher classes, which is fine, but stressing them out when they didn't get the grades needed, it used to bother me relentlessly #ditchbook
I know what you say has truth, Cassandra, & I also believe too many of us place too much faith in the validity of the grades on which we're basing these decisions. (In their traditional forms, grades are a too-easy shortcut for complex measuring tasks.) #ditchbook
A3. No classrooms should not go gradeless. This is how students become motivated, they can promote to different clubs for good grades, and grades are the reason students get into better colleges. #ditchbook#aedu209
Q3: Part Two: Focus on competencies and personalizing a student's education. We do not need a grade to determine if a child mastered a concept. Either (a) they did or (b) they didn't. If they have not mastered, what are we going to do to get them there? #ditchbook
I think that classrooms should continue to keep up with the academic grades of students. I get frustrated at how test scores mean more than actual grades at times.#ditchbook
We have 4 week checks, but students know that their grade isn't final until the semester ends. I want them to learn and that happens at different times for different students. #ditchbook
A3: I can only use 260 characters, otherwise I would say YES 100 times. The only “grade” would be a final exam or final paper or project to show knowledge.. other than that, LEARNING and the want to learn would take priority. If that puts more focus on SATs, so what? #DitchBook
A hybrid system has been implemented in various places. It can be done, but it is a bit different than going gradeless at the MS or ES levels. #DitchBook
A3 I think there should be grades in the classroom, so it motivates students to do their best. It also sets up guidelines, and the foundation of the classroom. #ditchbook#aedu209
Theoretically yes, because grades can be a weak measure of the learning process. But getting rid of them may require dismantling the system from elementary through college. Start with supplementing with more and more information so grades become less relevant. #DitchBook A3
A4. For math we all use the same scoring sheet. I give them points bc of the common grading system we have but no percentage and they have up to two weeks to change that if they so choose. I have seen so much improvement in Ss already! #ditchbook
A4- I use a google form & Sheet to keep track of student progress. On the google form I mark students progress Then use the google sheet and conditional formatting to look for patterns
#DitchBookhttps://t.co/o8hR1JFr7m
A3 We have only 1 report card at EOY (for K-5). I love this shift, and it could lend itself to going gradeless. Make learning goals crystal clear to kids, be competency based and provide mostly rich, narrative feedback. #ditchbook
Q2:Sometimes students tie their self-esteem to their grades, especially when they are a struggling student that is truly trying to be successful but still has a poor grade #ditchbook
Think about where you've seen true growth in your life and what motivated it.
It probably wasn't to lift a B+ to an A-.
Traditional grades are inauthentic. #DitchBook
Hear me out.. colleges look at SATs, volunteer hours, letters of rec and essays anyway... why make GPA matter? A valedictorian at one school wouldn’t even be top 25 at another school. The SAT puts everyone on an even playing field. No GPA = higher focus on learning #Ditchbook
A4: With my high school, I can't just not give grades. My new system this quarter has been to allow students to redo the assignment (based on feedback) until they get the grade they want. #ditchbook
A4: Speaking for primary students here...Give them more attention when they're doing something remarkable. After all, they don't understand what an "A+" or a "4" (standards based) really means - they just know they should have it. But your attention? They want that! #ditchbook
A4- Immediate feedback If students are working on @goformative or G Suite I can hop on and leave feedback to them with comments. I can also pull them to work with me to provide feedback and correction or enrichment. I have also left video feedback for students to view. #DitchBook
A4 one suggestion @rickwormeli2 (worth checking him out if you haven’t) has is to get rid of zeros. Make the scale fair. An F is an F. Why does it have to be more than half of your scale? #ditchbook
I really think that's what we need, Jeremy ... but that does require a LOT of people to think who are letting the percentages and letter grades do all the talking. #WeNeedThinkers#DitchBook
Ss fill out what they think they deserve on behavior/social skill section of report card. Then I put what I plan to give. They have 3 wks 2 make a consistent change if they want me 2 change it. Also show them their report card wk early in case they want 2 challenge it. #ditchbook
I learned more in college than I ever did in high school. Why? I cared about my GPA, but it didn’t dictate everything that I did. I learned because I wanted to learn - not because I HAD to get As. #DitchBook
A4: I think a powerful alternative is basing student knowledge on a mastery scale for given standards. Allow the student 2 demonstrate knowledge of standards instead of grading it a B for not having enough Slides in their presentation. But, did they master the content? #ditchbook
I agree with the system of grading students academically. I just feel that it is unfortunate that standardized test have more weight in terms of how well a student is perceived academically. #ditchbook
Many schools are moving to a portfolio that shows growth, the 4 C's, how you contribute the world and the learning process, and no focus on grades #ditchbook
A4: Feedback Feedback Feedback! Timely feedback that is specific! Can also use a system of proficient, nearly proficient, basic, and below basic that is color coded. Students strive to be proficient. The feedback helps them get there. #DitchBook
In essence, the GPA becomes a compliance monitor. i.e. "How well did the student figure out what the teacher wanted and comply to collect points?" #DitchBook
In reply to
@theteachingcurc, @MandiTolenEDU, @rlfreedm
I'm proud to say we are one of them!! I am really looking forward to assisting my students in creating their digital portfolios over their writing samples. Will carry with them throughout HS! #ditchbook
Many schools are moving to a portfolio that shows growth, the 4 C's, how you contribute the world and the learning process, and no focus on grades #ditchbook
I agree. Parents are a huge piece of the grading dilemma. They're a powerful force, and sometimes it's easier for Ts to bend to that pressure. Plus, a shift away from grades = change. And change is hard. So just keep things easy. 😵 #ditchbook
In reply to
@MandiTolenEDU, @rlfreedm, @sdtitmas, @TTmomTT
If you think that "grades" means percentages or percentages translated into scaled letter grades.....and that "grades" are the opposite of "feedback"....perhaps you need to rethink the way you grade and how you give feedback! Imagine a better way to "grade!" #ditchbook
A4: I really love using the two-sided "rubric" where you have your goal in the middle and can write "glows" on the right highlighting ways students went above and beyond the criteria and then "grows" on the left where you can discuss ways students can improve. #ditchbook
