#caedchat Archive
#caedchat is for California educators, by California educators. All are welcome as moderators and participants discuss issues that emerge in California education, which are generally applicable to other regions of the United States.
Sunday June 12, 2016
Good evening
Craig, 4th grade teacher in Walnut Creek, CA
Welcome to ! Please introduce yourself :)
Hey Will you be at ? I'm pretty sure you said yes.
Is this Canadian chat or California chat? Now I'm confused. https://t.co/MuhAuYPxpQ
Welcome to ! Please introduce yourself :)
Leila here from Escondido USD
It's Hey Ya'll... Scott from So Cal, 5th Grade...
Evening ! Cherise from SF Bay Area. Teacher Educator
Hey, ! Haven't been here in ages, but this is a topic dear to my heart. Jana, in Oakland. 6th English.
Karl joining from Langley, BC
Thanks for joining us - welcome back!
Thanks for joining us tonight, Cherise!
You still have some CA in tho
Just popping in for a bit.
hi Jana nice to see you! Happy start of summer!
Up in Nor Cal for right now.
HELLLLOOO ! Todd, elem principal in CA...gearing up for the last two weeks of school (yes, we are still in session!)
hello ! Scott from NorCal. Digital Media and Robotics tchr.
Wow! Late finish... but then a later start too ehh/ https://t.co/ft5Qy48qnx
HELLLLOOO ! Todd, elem principal in CA...gearing up for the last two weeks of school (yes, we are still in session!)
Ian - principal in BCs Sunny Shuswap - weather making me think about
Thanks for joining us, Ian!
Mrs. Dickson's Protein Sprayer: "...after I stopped my silly giggling, I asked her to repeat herself." https://t.co/oRXygwy1D6
Yes...very true...we start with students the Tuesday after Labor Day!
I think it's at my school
I remembe when it used to be that way
Q1- Define student achievement. How you measure it in your room/at your site?
Unfortunately...in my district...they have difficulty letting go of the past!
Thanks! I'm leaving tomorrow!
A1: Ss achievement: finding information & creating arguments? I try to design assessments (mostly projets) that ask Ss to do that.
A1: Growth from the beginning of the year to the end. Better writing, a long list of independent books read, & a hunger for more.
. Myra from OC but in KC for AP scoring on a very slow connection.
A1) We have different measures for student achievement. Like to view the whole child rather than just some test.
A1: Pretty much is project deliverables, such as a culminating product and/or presentation
A1: Student achievement is growth...growth in creativity...growth in critical thinking...growth in communication
A1 Achievement = growth. From where they started to how far they go. Multiple measures are used.
Had Ss read 2 yr old papers they wrote for me - that was fun to have Ss reflect on!
I wish achievement were measured by student growth from start of year to finish.
A1- Ability to show growth. Identifying student strengths and areas of growth
Aaaand you didn't answer the question :)
How do you measure growth? So I can steal it :)
A1 we are doing a lot of work with the soft skills that are hard to measure. Tons of reflection and rubric work.
A1 student achievement is defined so differently - for some sharing learning for others just being in the building
it definitely can I just feel like that is something we are slow to execute
How do you go about measuring that growth?
I think it is something you mentioned...their projects...comparing and reflecting from the start to the end...
How do you make that palatable for Ss? That's been an issue at my old school.
A1 nice to use eportfolios since we are enabled to track student growth in individualized ways!
A1) Student achievement is measured by working to build confidence, \encourage risk taking, and out of the box thinking.
A1 achievement measurable every step of the way. "Evidence of learning" = formative assessment embedded even in small activities
Word. Always worth asking!
A1 (Part 2): When the media and researchers measure achievement, what they mean is usually standardized test scores
A1b can be social/collaboration, technology/dig fluency, literacy, numeracy & other forms of growth
Yeah, our district uses "i-ready" from curriculum associates
We do many Homeroom lessons focusing on mindset. Also, helping kids to focus on process not product. Student made rubrics
A1:Making forward progress in academic and social emotional development in hopes of preparing a child for the life they choose
Student Reflection..compare where they started. Doesn't diminish comparing pre/post tests - tells more of the story!
I like that https://t.co/ZxMJoGqOGy
A1b can be social/collaboration, technology/dig fluency, literacy, numeracy & other forms of growth
A1: Growth // finding the right way to measure growth is important. Finding those assessments can be difficult.
why not the standard system?
Great to point out- Ts/Ss deserve to be able to ID these as goals & own measures for growth https://t.co/Z7p44CE8qa
A1 we are doing a lot of work with the soft skills that are hard to measure. Tons of reflection and rubric work.
Nice! Each Ss makes own rubric? Or rubrics Ss create are for other students as well?
Standard system wouldn't be inside the box. Unless we were all on the metric system.
Q2 What assumptions do educators make about parent understanding of achievement?
Joining late from Plumas County
I like that we do a little of this with google forms but I can definitely be more intentional.
A2 - I think we assume too often parents will not want to have conversations beyond grades and scores.
A2 I assume - based on convos w/ Ps - that Ps are judging achievement based on their Ss grades.
Q1 John Hattie said it best= expect one year's growth
A2: We assume that parents associate letter grades with achievement
A1: (HS) dream to measure it by skill attainment and knowledge of their own strengths, interest, and values. Reality=SBAC,GPA
A2 assessment systems of the past were good enough.....I'm driving a 1988 car.....there are better ways available...!
A2: Every parent expects all A’s.
A2) Teachers assume that parents want to see results that align to a letter grade like when they were in school.
A2: Most presume that all parents care about is As Bs Cs Ds Fs and test scores.
A2 %s seem easy until we realize how inaccurate they quickly become. Good way to sort, bad way to show learning
A2: Assumption is that fams are obsessed with school records, not achievement itself. How it LOOKS, not what it IS.
unless you're qualitative researcher. Narratives, observations and interviews = effective data as well
Agreed. But our education system largely ignores qualitative data
Ugh - letter grades! Where a B can mean you just missed an A or surpassed a C+ but valued the same! https://t.co/FBL08oiyIe
A2: We assume that parents associate letter grades with achievement
this is so true. How do you think we can change this?
A2: HS parents have much concern about grades.
A2: That parents understand:
standards-based report cards
printed reports after a test
what a rubric is for...
How do we get them away from the letter grade and more focused on the mastery of standards?
most assume everything besides grades is white noise to parents.
I think that many teachers also assume that parents are able to assist with classwork
Yes. Highlights need 4 Ts to construct own narratives- display student work, coach Ss to make civic impact https://t.co/Kal51wgtjW
Agreed. But our education system largely ignores qualitative data
I think that we have to continue to invite the conversation
This is a systemic higher-ed prob. Until uni's stop placing so much weight on tests/GPAs, gonna fall on deaf ears.
As an educator I have concerns about grades (on a 1-4 scale all 3s can = an A B or C+) https://t.co/s5oXHNZ5Zm
A2: HS parents have much concern about grades.
A2: This is the battle for innovation in high school. Ps and many Ts want the GPA and AP courses because they compete for college
Totally hear that. But that doesn't mean we don't need to shift though :)
Q2 Educators assume that parents want/should know progress on every standard. Most want to know, is my child happy and learning?
No, it doesn't mean we shouldn't! Primary/Secondary leads the way in ed innovation!
A2(part 2): But as parent of 2 girls K and 4th, I don't care abt report cards as much as love of learning and kindness to others
So true
https://t.co/xAc0PDrfIf
Q2 Educators assume that parents want/should know progress on every standard. Most want to know, is my child happy and learning?
Yeah - I just get worried about ppl who say they won't change b/c colleges.
Not implying you were saying that though!
Ask parents what they care about. And report on that https://t.co/D6IzNtOtx7
A2(part 2): But as parent of 2 girls K and 4th, I don't care abt report cards as much as love of learning and kindness to others
love the idea of white noise... grades can become that...
it would be great to someday place more emphasis on personal growth rather than numbers. Not easy
definitely true. I wish there was a way to pressure them more. I have heard that some uni’s are pressuring for change.
My gradebook would look a little different.
A2 that they understand effort is directly tied to achievement
Yet good %s on transcripts haven't led to 4 year U success for too many; need to better know the learner https://t.co/Pjq32XZQNv
Parents are too stuck on grades when they should be focusing more on how their child is learning.
Q3 - What do parents at your school believe achievement is? How do you know parents believe this?
Interesting point. Imp not to get lost in tedium. https://t.co/atYCFE4CYn
Q2 Educators assume that parents want/should know progress on every standard. Most want to know, is my child happy and learning?
A wise man once said "I refuse to prepare my S's for bad pedagogy"
A2: I think some Ps think Ts have all the answers. I don't always know if your kid is on point! You know her best.
Amen! Education can be the answer to a lot of social issues if we can make that change
has anyone else read "Turning the Tide" interesting commentary on the college admit process and grades
A3 - Many would say at any school still focus on the big 3 - Grades, Stand Test Scores & GATE qualification. I need to ask more.
stupid autocorrect.....changing SHould to "w"ould
A3: I need to talk to parents more about this - I need to operate on what they actually think, not what I guess they think
A2: I would need fewer students in class to assess progress individually not using tests.
A3 1/2 they believe it is all grades, and only As are good enough. Modified grading scale means an A is only 100-93%
Well, exactly. So I'm sending kids who are used to coopL and PBL off to Lectureville! Poor babies. ;)
A3: Taught Gov/Econ this year. Parents concerned about #1 graduation; #2 grades for college
A3: Lots of parents concerned about the grade not being good enough. Still need to foster a connection to grasp what P’s want.
A3: For some parents, it all depends on whether their child is classified as GATE...sad, becuz all my classes are GATE classes!
A3: Lots of variety. Some think it's a B average, some think it's growing independence, some think it's just "getting by."
A3 2/2 lots of emails about why ss are getting a 92 or 91 and how I "must" change it to an A. Some only care about the grade
A3 Depends on the parent/guardian.Some this yr noticed a difference in S interest in world affairs/discussions at home. Loved this
Lectureville doesn't prepare S's for 21st century careers!
Yeah - but it's nice when they realize that things were different for a year or two :)
whatever aids in college and future jobs is achievement. Parents want opportunity for their kids.
A3) I think that parents believe that achievement is measured by growth in areas of concern.
so true in the OC.. How do we combat this Todd? !
and how do we as teachers meet all of these expectations if they are never the same!? Seems insurmountable at times.
I'm not sure how accurately parents know this. Given how quickly things are changing, I don't know if I know this.
A3: Based on HS Ps calls and emails they often care about final scores and/or work completed not achievement and rarely learning.
Q4 How do educators, higher education and/or parents reinforce skewed Ss view on what achievement is?
Change our conversations to share our observations of each child's strength and how we're growing them. https://t.co/beGpw685DC
how can we focus them on strength based education...?
A2: The meaning of grades is completely understood & that they are accurate reflections of achievement.
and the difference between 92-93 is absolute? (Had a friend miss an A by .00001% despite finding a mismark)
We don't even need to discuss the discrepancy between college provosts and industry expectations. https://t.co/hVz0qknjX4
Yet good %s on transcripts haven't led to 4 year U success for too many; need to better know the learner https://t.co/Pjq32XZQNv
A4 - I catch myself still answering the question “Is this graded?” or “Is this for a grade?”
A3 (Cont): My wife is K tchr. Says most P's want their S's to love learning, develop empathy, be good friend, learn how to learn
Yeah... should their work habits change if it is or isn't. Shouldn't matter, right? https://t.co/vFXNzA86cd
A4 - I catch myself still answering the question “Is this graded?” or “Is this for a grade?”
A4 by only rewarding "right" answers and spending too much time belaboring the point on a "wrong" answer. Need to focus on effort
A4: Many don't want to change b/c of colleges. Leads to a throwing up of hands and doing things how we have always done them.
Great ?...I did away with GATE cluster classes, tell Ps how little it matters for MS and HS...still a work in progress
a4 (sorta): Honestly, who KNOWS what achievement is? It's all a spectrum and a series of experiences. There's no finish line.
A4: As Aflie Kohn says, we must get Ss to focus on "what" as opposed to "how well." Oh, hello,
A4 Better Q: How do these groups shift focus from our idea of achievement to Ss setting own goals and reflecting on progress? :)
Q4 I'll reference "Turning the Tide" again out of Harvard, until college admissions change, achievement won't change
Grades. By turning a human process of learning into a statistical process. Making a gray subject black and white.
Are we "skewing" the idea of achvmt? The idea of student achvmt ITSELF is kind of flawed. I mean, what do adults think achvmt is?
A4: Grade at any cost but little effort. So much cheating. I caught so many this year. Some so obvious.
spot on! Reminds me of Robert Fulghum- everything I needed to know I learned in K
Wishing I had time for tonight. Love the topic.
If we look at achievement from SEL perspective, wouldn't we say it is personal growth, self-actualization?
I grade WAY fewer things than I used to. Has helped shift convo towards demonstrating learning w/ Ss
A5: How many well intentioned Ts and As have told Ss you need to go to college as if it is the only measure of success.
A4 I feel like achievement is skewed by colleges and what career readiness is.
Ss worried less about grades - and more about learning things they were interested in.
(pushing in fun) but does "good" = "accurate" (B has a huge range of numbers in it)
A3: I don't know what all parents believe, but I know that those who reach out most frequently reach out because of grades.
by getting caught up in debates about a single point. Can I just say- grades yuck!
Hey It’s Kathy from Upland- checking in (yes I know it’s late). I teach 9th graders (biology)
Nah - you've got over 1/3 of the chat left!
A4 Must focus on reflection, formative assessment, & peer critique during learning process and not a big unit/project grade at end
A4 we can oftentimes very narrowly define what is deemed successful
Imagine it: "I'm, oh, 60% of the way to being proficient at being 35 years old." That would be... "Approaching Expectations." ;)
A3: And they don't reach out about high grades (usually-I can think of 1 exception from this year). It's usually about low grades.
A5: Even the new API calculation will include a measure of UC A-G rates. Makes sense that Edu is about 20 Yrs late. 4 yrs mean <,
This is a problem among Honors Ss. I have a conversation throughout the year about changing the perception https://t.co/Cc93NQ1F1Z
A4: Grade at any cost but little effort. So much cheating. I caught so many this year. Some so obvious.
and we can define success through failure.
Quality over quantity when it comes to assessments & Learning !! https://t.co/VZmxsSzCUU
I grade WAY fewer things than I used to. Has helped shift convo towards demonstrating learning w/ Ss
Making me wonder what the student's definition of achievement would be...
probably involves a videogame
A4: Ps reach out to Ts to instead of allowing a S to advocate from him or herself first.
Oh, I think that attitude I referenced is a copout for not changing things.
And I was glad to read about the shift!
Also worth noting: There can be significant cultural differences in perception of achievement.
My honors Ss are really bad about this- even when I show them that a single point does not matter overall https://t.co/fVMkMGHhnQ
by getting caught up in debates about a single point. Can I just say- grades yuck!
A4) School seems to revolve around grades
👋🏽Salaams. It's .
I'm late.
My white out exploded + my💄is missing. 😠 It's also Maghrib time.
yes! High pressure on grades then high cheating. Such a terrible cycle. Have to shift the whole tide, as has been said
great thought Craig... that would be valuable to know...
Q5 How do you communicate Ss achievement to parents in creative or non-traditional ways?
And depending on privilege, some may think, "grades aren't what equal success" but that may not be the narrative for someone else.
A5) We like to invite parents into the room to share i the learning through centers.
honestly to some it might be friends. Maybe they are ahead of the curve. Lol.
a5 call and talk to them?
A5) helps to provide a glimpse into student thought trough journals. Students also blog.
A5 Emails home about superior effort and/or growth in a skillset - not super innovative, but something...
It’s especially bad at the high school level- since the grades are needed for competitive college entrance https://t.co/fG6E7UapLv
A4) School seems to revolve around grades
Fail = frequent attempts in learning = success over time https://t.co/T6MXQFAnIM
and we can define success through failure.
A5 Remind is great to give updates, also have our own website, instagram, twitter and we use for newsletters.
Sorry got to go -2 hour time difference in KC. Have to get up early tomorrow for more AP scoring.
A5 I ask my ss to share a specific point they learned from the lesson with their ps that their ps are unlikely to know
A5: Student portfolios using Google Sites
I have found that cheating is usually a result of a child terrified of a bad grade.
Boom! At the end of the day, grades are a gatekeeper. Have to help Ss ID their goals & advocate for selves https://t.co/lcHLpDE8qh
And depending on privilege, some may think, "grades aren't what equal success" but that may not be the narrative for someone else.
A5 S-led conferences. S Discuss work samples & both progress and areas for improvement. Website portfolios and hard copy work.
Written notes actually seem to work well. Not crazy about e-mails as much. Less personal.
we tried this out with Sway this year! Portfolios are a great way to share what student’s have been learning.
Q5 Honestly, this is where I need to grow. I think portfolios and Ss blogs are a good start. Curious about
A5 really enjoying what I am seeing in eportfolios - ie
I agree- though for some it is also an opportunistic challenge (I figured out how to game the system) https://t.co/Aomu3hOxrn
I have found that cheating is usually a result of a child terrified of a bad grade.
Q6 What successes have you had shifting parent understanding of achievement?
Cheating based on culture too (ie you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin; if you're not first you're last etc) https://t.co/rVLlOjnxep
I have found that cheating is usually a result of a child terrified of a bad grade.
A6: Growth mindset teaching works on parents, too! Teaching the power of "yet" and that failure is powerful is illuminating.
A6 convincing parents that more can be achieved when pushing and struggling even it it means Bs or Cs
This is not always true. Sometimes Ss struggle to do well, still can't "get it," and resort to cheating.
You're welcome. We're over a barrel because we want to track mastery but still have to give A-F at the end.
That is because they have not attended class/did any work/or paid attention
A6) Still working on this one.
a6 anchor papers can help, otherwise, how do parents know what is expected?
our focus is on formative descriptive feedback. Some exploring some different ways (no symbols), some still 1-4s
A6: Very little success. Deflecting concern re:grades to discussion of growth, but that isn't a great answer. Need to steal ideas!
I always state that it's better to falter now and learn what we can do better https://t.co/w5aM4DeuvZ
A6 convincing parents that more can be achieved when pushing and struggling even it it means Bs or Cs
Indeed. I would say being scared of "failure" is an issue of culture too though.
that sounds challenging. Why do you still give A-F at the end? parent request? https://t.co/BTArHYplXi
You're welcome. We're over a barrel because we want to track mastery but still have to give A-F at the end.
The def of "cheating" is changing. We weren't allowed calc's in schl, and the internet itself is like a giant cheat code.
How did Sway work for portfolios? Will you use then again?
My Parents & Teachers page https://t.co/xqwkuNklLs Need to establish good relationships with parents from start of school year
My school wants to move to S-led conferences. We want the Ss to accept responsibility for their efforts. https://t.co/VRm8AubOm0
A5 S-led conferences. S Discuss work samples & both progress and areas for improvement. Website portfolios and hard copy work.
My school recently got rid of Valedictorian & Salutatorian to focus on honoring all Ss who have excelled. 1/2
A6 modelling, taking feedback and making adjustments to "what 'we' want" in communicating learning
Some students really don't understand that I don't want them to copy the most "expert" answer they can find.
A6 A work in progress. Some Ps appreciative of alt projects, depth of content, others equate memorization of facts to learning:(
It honors achievement, by not deciding on one person based on 1/10 of a point.
it built over time. Trust and willingness to explore helps (10 years wout ✔️ x % # etc for me)
But for some Ss the only definition of success is an A. Some students are not "A" students (and that's okay).
I liked them. Here’s a Ss work. https://t.co/ik6OaTInHj
I would change a few things but definitely will try it again.
Q7 What do you want to try next year to communicate Ss achievement differently?
My students achievement is measured in winning character essay contests and raising $2.2K for Equador on their own!
I'm new to the district, so I wasn't totally "in the know" but from my measure it was a mixed review (Ps&Ss).
A7) Include the question of achievement as part of student information questionnaire to parents and to students too
A7 More organization with Student portfolios and more opportunities to share with an authentic audience.
A6 Relationship with P is key. Honest conversations are hard for both sides.
I’m mixed-The world understands 1st & 2nd place & rank- They earned top marks but what did they LEARN? https://t.co/N7eHnH5zui
My school recently got rid of Valedictorian & Salutatorian to focus on honoring all Ss who have excelled. 1/2
fromyourpage-Invite Ps..beginning of..year..hands-on workshop...showing them how U will be using tech in your class.
There is new criteria for honoring S achievement for 2017. Work in progress. Consistency will be important.
Sorry got here so late! Will be looking thru the chat after everyone else is gone!
At my campus, there are more than 1 valdictorian if the s's have gpa that are near each.
That's what I'm talking about!
A6: The amazing work with S celebrations are the way to go! As they iterate on these prototypes they only get better
All should-now to get rid of antiquated Queens etc..to show what matters at school is learning
It's def not THE answer, but we are also working toward a senior portfolio to answer the Q: What did you learn?
A7: I started a "genius wall" this year when I saw it on Twitter: each S has a page on wall saying what they can help others with
A6: Success in shifting P understanding of Ss achievement w a P - 3rd child taught who trusts me & listened to Innov. T methods
A7 More immediate and more personalized feedback. Also, to be more consistent in ongoing S reflections throughout the year.
Q7: I am going to try implementing an element of reflection on all assessment next year.
this is hard. the consistency of making sure every student knows you’re looking at what they’ve been sharing.
Thank you everyone for the chat tonight
Props to and for the questions
Thanks to the team of moderators !!!
We had 16 valedictorians graduate yesterday. All w/ 4.0's.
this is a great idea! Thanks for sharing.
Yes, because each parent has a different expectation of achievement. Set goals together! https://t.co/rAgVlnyHsM
A7) Include the question of achievement as part of student information questionnaire to parents and to students too
