#engsschat Archive
Last Monday of every month, #engchat joins #sschat to form #engsschat. Stephanie Sukow leads this effort and her help is greatly appreciated.
Monday August 29, 2016
7:00 PM EDT
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Please take a minute to introduce yourself, what you teach, etc. Don't forget to use the combined hashtag tonight!
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So glad to have everyone joining tonight. Thanks for hosting. Tonight's ?s can be viewed here: https://t.co/6JNVRaLXeA
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Welcome to tonight's co-moderated by the awesome . Hope everyone's having a great start (or almost start) to the year.
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Please take a minute to introduce yourself, what you teach, etc. Don't forget to use the combined hashtag tonight!
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Hi, I'm Steph! I teach HS English and speech in the NW Suburbs.
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Bruce NC SS/ELA 6th grade
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Hi Scott Petri, high school History teacher from So Cal. Looking forward to learning from all of you.
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Hi , this is Bill Chapman, a retired secondary social studies teacher, checking in from Berkeley, CA.
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Thanks for joining us tonight, Bill! Good to see you.
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Chris from Bloomington, IN. Teach world history for private online HS. Checking in from son's late starting cc meet.
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Hope you've had an enjoyable and productive summer, Steph!
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Phil from Sarasota. Lurking for a while as dinner is about to happen. Hope to contribute. Teaching 6-8 AH
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Jacob from TN checking in!
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Hi there ! I'm Andrew from Massachusetts, teaching 8th grade Social Studies (students arrive next Tuesday)
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You made it! Hope you're safe with the crazy weather by you.
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Thanks for joining us, Phil.
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Thanks for joining us tonight, Scott.
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Kayla from Raleigh I teach AP world and AP US
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Hi I made my Wash DC hotel reservations this weekend. Getting excited about 's conf.
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Always great to have more people for
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Thanks for joining us tonight, Kayla!
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Hi! Dan. I teach social studies- philosophy/government in NW suburbs of Chicago
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Emily from the Chicago suburbs. I teach 9th grade English. Have been in session since Aug. 17th!
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I'm excited for tonight's topic. So often we're told to not embrace and avoid failure, but can be value in it.
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Thanks for joining, Dan! Always nice to see a fellow NW suburbanite on
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Thanks for joining us! Loving all the Chicago people here tonight.
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We're going to get started with question one in just a second. I'm hoping the storms are not too much by some tonight!
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Please follow the Q1/A1, Q2/A2 format!
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Anthony from TN checking...thanks for the invite
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Q1: How can teachers encourage Ss to view mistakes as learning opportunities? How can failure be positive for our Ss?
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Thanks for joining in tonight!
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A1 Share personal stories of how a mistake turned into a learning opportunity--write on board the good that came from it
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A1 Making the sports analogy can be helpful. Mastering & improving requires intense practice & adjust cycles.
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A1 Make assignment requirements less specific (5 pp) to see what S's think is grade-level appropriate work.
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A1: By providing student-led remediation (relearning!) opportunities for when failure occurs.
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A1) Fewer things that are "one and done." Allow Ss to edit, revise, improve their work.
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A1) I stress to mine, it is fine to make mistakes we just have to learn and get better. Many can't fathom this, it is what it is.
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I tell about how I lost school committee election but it turned out okay. Use to show cause-effect AND power of failure
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Promote the growth mindset and distance your teaching from having them do things for a grade and focus more on the learning
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A1: I love the principles. We're all always growing and learning. Part of that process is making mistakes.
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That often requires re-thinking & re-designing grading practices, but totally worthwhile in the end
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I love the idea of revision - especially in the writing process. The best authors are always revising
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A1 We shld connect 2 wht Ss R motivated /asked 2 accomplish. If the goal is insight, wht do I 2 get there.Trying hpls find gaps
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Yes, putting it in athletic terms helps so many of our Ss at the high school level, too.
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True about authors, but we rarely pull back the veil on full publishing process (editors, proofers, etc.)
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Yes! We all "fail big." Sharing those stories makes failing relateable and a common learning process.
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Q2: How can teachers help Ss learn from failure without feeling discouraged or frustrated?
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A1: With seniors, I share a chapter from Anne Lamott's Bird By Bird. First drafts can really stink! https://t.co/4whntT9OHT
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A1: With seniors, I share a chapter from Anne Lamott's Bird By Bird. First drafts can really stink! https://t.co/8qtCZUFXHX
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A2 Grade on extent to which students achieve goals over time.
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A2: By not allowing practice to impact Ss' grades. Ideally, Ss can fail in practice without the worry or stress!
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Yes! I love to emphasize this idea w/ a speech class. Not everyone is a pro out of the gate. Growth is key.
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Ss must feel a *little* discouraged or else why make a change/revision? The trick is to normalize that frustration
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A2: provide both warm and cool feedback- what worked well and help them problem solve things that need improvement
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A2 If a lesson stinks, say "I'm sorry. This isn't my best. Tomorrow will be better" Ask for forgiveness. They will give it!
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I agree! Many of us give HW assts that are actually practice
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Yes, great point! We just don't want Ss to feel so discouraged that they shut down. There's definitely a balance
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Question 3 is coming up in just a minute...
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Hi - first ! Wanted 2 share info about our program for teachers. FREE webinars, wkshps, curricula! More: https://t.co/GTdwpeePm4
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Q3: What are some examples of teachable "fails" that you've had in your classroom? How have you and your Ss learned from them?
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Yes! It happens to everyone. We're all a part of the learning process.
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A2: Make revision and brainstorming a habit. If Ss see it as a process, they are more likely to explore different ideas.
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A3 Last January I tried a different form of assessment 3 times (1-to-1 oral quizzes)...couldnt make it work during 1 class period
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A3: I'm big on saying Ss names the 1st day of class. I always end up saying a few names very wrong
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A3: when I student taught all my tech I had borrowed was dead. It taught me not to panic and think on my feet. It ended up better
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checkout on the last Monday if the month
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Technology can be tricky and glitchy. But we can all learn and problem solve together, though.
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Hi Sarah. We are tonight.
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This! I think I got my job b/c overhead projector bulb died during my practice lesson, but I adapted
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I'm here! I'm here! I'm here! I got stuck in traffic in non-internet capable Vermont! SO SORRY!
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A3 Team building activities can take less time than expected. How to fill time/make learning valuable becomes a teachable moment.
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One of my most popular econ lessons was preparing tax forms in Apr. Lots of practice, practice, practice. https://t.co/Z2Jm8DApnX
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So much for living in rural New England in order to get away from digital distractions (we have no cell service).
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"Hey kids, let's see if we can do that again ... but faster!" [glances again at classroom clock]
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A3Happened last week. We had a chat about times the Ss had "One of those days." It ended up being a fun way to get to know them.
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We all fail - Ts and Ss. My next question is coming p to address the stigma against failing in just a minute.
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Hello, Sarah from Richmond, VA joining. Sorry I am late.
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No worries! You are missed... we are adapting and continuing on with the conversation. Hang in there!
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Catching up on the feed...
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Welcome to tonight's chat! Glad to have you
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Q4: Why is there such a stigma to failure? Why are our Ss and why are we afraid to fail?
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A3 Next day tell class you 'misunderstood' a S's comment during discussion. You reflected and changed your mind. Powerful
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Lesson learned tonight: leave more than :15 margin min when driving to pick 17yo up at track :60 mins away.
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A4 Popular culture glorifies success and winning. Losers are forgotten quickly.
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Dan, this is one of my favorite ways to model positive adaptation to mistakes. Admitting to mistakes tends to blow Ss minds!
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A4 We usually only see the success (tip of iceberg) not the work/preparation/trial-and-error that went into it
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A4) S much is focused on success, failure is not even an option for students. Pressure from home, and society is also a factor.
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A4. Stigma comes mainly from not wanting to appear less than perfect in eyes of Ps, peers, Ts. Fixed mindset doesn't help.
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Glad to have you on, ! We're on question 4! Why is there such a stigma to failure?
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True, but those who come in 2nd, 3rd, etc. usually work and prepare equally hard.
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A4: With such a push to achieve, grow, and so progress - sometimes a step back or even a small failure can seem daunting.
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is now trending in USA, ranking 42
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A4 From history tching standpoint, "winners" like Washington, Churchill, Gandhi, Dr King are often presented as polished products
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A4: our culture glorifies and focuses on the rich and successful and end goals not the failures that came before b/c Failure=weak
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Which is why most modes of assessment, esp. summative, are pretty bogus for "ranking" kids.
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Indeed, and usually from birth!
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Yes, with my speech Ss, I stress the beauty in our mistakes and imperfections. Mistakes lead to opportunities. t
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Thanks for joining us tongiht! Don't forget to use the tag!
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We get more than one chance to take a driving test, for instance!
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Sheesh, I hope so. I have a teen who has not taken his test yet.
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Sometimes failure is the result of a lack of effort. Let's talk how to prevent failure because of a lack of trying. in our next ?
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A4: Unfortunately Ss are taught conditional love/acceptance. Being perfect = being loved by others. Mistakes are to be avoided
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Just went to Churchill Museum/War Rooms & WC's report cards were there. School considered WC disappointing failure (esp French!)
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You remind me that I was in my driver's ed class car when news broke of JFK's assassination in 1963.
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Feel you. My son's cross country meet started over 30 minutes late which is why I've been kind of AWOL tonight. :(
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A4) We tend to give Ss idea that everything is soooo important, if they mess something up, they have no chance for top college.
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Q5: How can teachers remediate failure as a result of learned helplessness or lack of effort in Ss?
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True, but that's not reflected or stated by some? / many? / most? teachers
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A5 Reward practice and refinement rather than end product.
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Q6: How do teachers convince Ps that frustration is necessary part of learning?
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A5) Encourage/support Ss, refuse to accept shoddy work. Have them revise & resubmit (like submitting for peer review journals).
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for some Ss it's not a lack of trying, I think that they don't have they have support or encouragement
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one thing I do is require Ss to show me their notes before retaking an assessment Must show proof of studying
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It's a fine line. Mistakes (because of a lack of practice) is not okay, but being in the moment is valuable
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Think some of this gets back to your earlier point about time/current practice (grades).
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A6: I think that if there is support and encouragement and there are opportunities to try and fail that aren't punitive-low grade
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Sorry! Not on 6 yet. Mis-paste.
A5 decide on goals that include process over product, or at least process AND product.
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A5: Effort is key. The learning process is active! Ss need to be taught to recognize, utilize, and value growth.
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A5: praise effort not achievement. Also building the relationship with ss to have those crit. conversations about lack of effort
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A5: Portfolios that show growth. Allow students to reflect on their growth in process.
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A5:I have Ss create a plan of relearning + actually map out how they will reteach themselves. Puts the ownership on them!
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That is the beauty of formative grades/assessment. Ss can learn what they need to improve/master before final grades
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Yeah, I'm gradually realizing how many problems of U.S. schooling are related to grading & HW
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A5 Show Ss HOW to fail by highlighting teacher failure. Model it. Be a consistent adult role model who isn't afraid to fail
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A5: At our school we stress looking for "will" or "skill". Is the student putting forth effort or just avoiding the work
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Yes, those convos so diff from "Good job! Keep it up." Asking Ss to reflect on work also helps.
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Yes! A positive outlook and support is key for Ss to be challenge at a comfortable but rigorous level.
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I've also found it's easy to say/model this stuff as T, but when MY kid is applying 4 college, it's hard! Good to remember that.
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And "one size fits all" mindset. Everyone has to do x by y in z way.
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A5 I think what doesn't work is to try to talk them out of feelings of inadequacy. Modeling is the power
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Yes! They're great tools for Ss to monitor their own progress, too.
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I first taught in 1970, & grades/HW were problematic even then.
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Yes! Recognize when Ss are pushing themselves & taking risks.
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Yes. Good job is shallow and doesn't help Ss move forward in mastering the process.
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I'm trying to acknowledge S effort more clearly BUT also maintain standard of proficiency to achieve
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Kids know "good job" is an empty platitude. Get specific!
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We have just a few minutes left... time for our last question, !
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Do you have ways for Ss to see progress toward proficiency/goals? I struggle w/ that.
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Here we go!
Q6: How do teachers convince Ps that frustration is necessary part of learning?
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Well, maybe it's comforting to know this is a longtime problem
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I think that the empty platitudes can be a result of teachers not being sure how to help Ss. Good job-first year go to
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Yes, when will we get to tipping point? Not sure . . .
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Undoubtedly long before 1970. I seem to recall John Dewey was a critic of them
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Think this is true to certain extent. Selected for teacher leadership acad 1st yr & this was discussed.
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A6: Again, if Ss and Ps see frustration as resulting only in low grades, you aren't going to get Ss or Ps on board.
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A6) I struggle w/ this some as P but has helped teaching HS kids. Only 1 part of their life, can recover from (most) mistakes.
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A6) Rarely do I get asked this question, teaching high school level parent involvement is miniscule.
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