Welcome to tonight's #edchatie discussion. As usual, before we begin, please introduce yourself.
Tonight's topic is "Deep learning; is it possible at post-primary level?"
Fred Boss, 2nd level art teacher, currently with @NCCAie
Looking forward to tonight's #edchatie discussion on "Deep learning; is it possible at post-primary level?"
#edchatie my initial response to this question is 'no'. I feel with the size of the cureiculum (speaking personally about Maths/Biology) and time constraints to teach it, there is little opportunity for deep learning unfortunately.
I suppose I say this in terms of learning content, however I feel in Maths especially there is much to be learned in terms of problem-solving skills. #edchatie
#edchatie that's why it needs to form part of the conversion on #lcreform. I know from taking to colleagues at third level many students who did a good leaving struggle to learn autonomously.
I agree - but am wondering if the skills & approaches of problem-solving are such that they can be learned through all subjects and so can be used to deepen learning in all subjects?
#edchatie
I imagine it would need a cross curricular approach. You will get students tell you 'just give us the notes that's what the other teachers do' #edchatie
I agree - but am wondering if the skills & approaches of problem-solving are such that they can be learned through all subjects and so can be used to deepen learning in all subjects?
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At primary level, I think it is important to try to teach the skills of learning and how to use e.g. digital tools to enhance learning; with all the accountability demanded however, we tend to focus on the "what" of learning instead of the "how" #edchatie
#edchatie Laurence Cuffe Math teacher/tutor joining late. I think thinking skills are on a spectrum from deep analysis to rapid intuition. Much of what we teach is preparing students for RPD https://t.co/8AfMIpyJyA in an exam situation
When I was in 2nd level I did SESP (the precursor of ESS) because of its P.B.L, thematic, constructivist approach I experienced deep learning - #edchatie - sadly ESS has disappeared in JC reform
I do think this is possible but it takes a change of approach to how students learn from a very early age. I do think sheer size of curriculum is an issue though. #edchatie
couldn't agree more. Important to foster an ability to look at the problem in different ways but hard to do that with time and curriculum pressures #edchatie
Should form part of #lcreform. Flexibility of #jcreform had meant short courses like coding are not exam focused and as a result students can take more ownership for learning, from themes explored to be technologies employed. #edchatie
I still wonder how I got through the first few months of college having rote learned majority of my LC. There was very little deep learning achieved by me in my LC I hate to say. #edchatie
#edchatie I would hope at primary we would be teaching children how to play, and nurturing curiosity by feeding them weirdly interesting things! Thats my memory of Montessori
Completely agree Laurence. Play and Inquiry is key to learning, a meaningful learning experience. I'm doing CBA with my students at min and they are thriving at it because they are discovering as they go along. #edchatie
We're halfway through tonight's #edchatie discussion on "Deep learning; is it possible at post-primary level?" - we're looking at it across primary and third level too
Me neither I'm afraid ... have seen some amazing teachers supporting students' deep exploration of topics - often in an extra curricular capacity #edchatie
Play is indeed a great way of nurturing curiosity, however it needs to be very focussed and needs to have well thought out tasks to avoid any children just sitting back and letting others in the group do the work #edchatie
#edchatie Irish education practice is all out filling boxes . They all look the same teach the same. Aggh!! Irish education annoyed me enough at the weekend. Not getting into another rant again.
It really does and it's actually through teaching that I have undone the rote learning mentality. I'm a much better student now than i ever was! #edchatie
not sure what you mean by that John. Lots of Irish teachers can enable deep learning. We just don't value it through our assessments generally IMHO #edchatie
Points system is an issue. CS lectures will tell you points is LC give no indication a students can or can't hack a CS course. The learning for LC is not reflective of skills required. #edchatie
#edchatie I'd like to think that most students can do deep learning at some level, initially. However if we are too critical we can teach them to mistrust us and themselves.. and as school becomes something to be endured it falls by the wayside.
I can see that through my own teaching too. Also watching my children who are sitting JC and LC this year has given me a different perspective #edchatie
couldn't agree more. We are too dependent on this type of assessment but there are issues with more practical assessments too. Hard to get the balance right sometimes #edchatie
In reply to
@GoStressbusterz, @AshDonohoe, @conpower
Students have their own interests outside of being students and they are involved in deep learning then - if we're saying that it doesn't happen in schools, then the question must be why?
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As a teacher and a parent, you see it from both sides... do you think your kids are deep learning? Or learning for the sake of passing exams? #edchatie
#edchatie interestingly I remember years ago an informal study in UCD chemistry, which found no correlation between success in 1st year chemistry and success in LC chemistry.
#edchatie I did History and while there is a research project you prepare in advance now back then you had to learn the project of and write it out. My LC was almost all a memory exam except elements of maths and physics.
depends on the subject and how much they enjoy it I think. I'd have to say that I see a lot of learning for the sake of passing exams. Have heard a lot of 'I don't need to know that ..." over the years #edchatie
At the end of the day we need an assessment that has a 'value' and that is currently an exam ie LC. How do we create a method of assessment to assess deep learning and understanding with an outcome thats going to conform to the LC points race? #edchatie
In reply to
@pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
It sounds great; do you work on a thematic basis to tie it in with the curriculum? #edchatie Do kids spend all their time in the STEAM room or is there also a traditional classroom setting?
Maths was definitely the subject in my LC (many moons ago) where you had no idea what was going to come up and/or how it was going to be asked #edchatie
#edchatiehttps://t.co/JgCNrHAXd5 the adults involved in this project are a Teaching Assistant and a former architect. Albemarle created space for this type of project because it is valued. One of the adults involved is a Teaching Assistant. He would never get a job in Ireland
1st year English students are currently exploring Michael Mc Laverty's The Poteen Maker a @jctEnglish recommended text. So many language techniques to explore! Short story available here: https://t.co/FwcCCR5P6P#edchatie#englishteacher
#edchatie If the LC is such a poor predictor of 3rd level success, which needs different thinking skills, why do we use it for selecting entrants, or even why do we have it at all? Does it work for some subjects...?
In reply to
@AshDonohoe, @pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
my young man has absolutely loved the History research project for his LC and has learned a huge amount from it ... but History is his favourite subject and he got to choose his topic #edchatie
Personally i think students should be assessed on their strenghts in connection to the course they are applying for. Bit then this requires a student to know their career direction much earlier to focus on attaining skills for that area. I don't know the answer π€ #edchatie
In reply to
@CuffeL, @pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
Its easy at an administrative level third level who run the CAO system. I'm sure many lectures would prefer portfolio/interview/exam combo. More holistic approach. Then you get the fairness and subjectivity argument #edchatie
In reply to
@CuffeL, @AshDonohoe, @pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz
Its easy at an administrative level for third level who run the CAO system. I'm sure many lecturers would prefer portfolio/interview/exam combo. More holistic approach. Then you get the fairness and subjectivity argument #edchatie
In reply to
@CuffeL, @AshDonohoe, @pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz
How many students drop out of their course because they picked it because they had the points for it... without really knowing what they were getting into and what skills they would require for it?! #edchatie
In reply to
@CuffeL, @pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
Am sitting here listening to himself prepping for summer practical aspect of music - that makes sense to me-as does testing composing as a skill-still has some theory but an option to focus on practical skills ... that makes sense as an assessment #edchatie
In reply to
@CuffeL, @AshDonohoe, @pamelaaobrien, @conpower
Colleges are starting to generalise first year of courses though to allow students sample different areas before pursuing them. @MaynoothUni is one doing this. Excellent approach. #edchatie
In reply to
@pamelaaobrien, @CuffeL, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower, @MaynoothUni
Yep as a history teacher teaching JC the reality is they will do better learning 'perfect' answers and so not need an original thought or argument in their head to succeed in the exam. #edchatie
I got my third CAO choice. I don't think I'd have been incapable of the other two, Architecture and Psychology... The outcomes of the system are peoples Life choices, It deserves our best efforts #edchatie
In reply to
@pamelaaobrien, @AshDonohoe, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
More than a few Iβd imagine! I was told years ago that I was wasting the points I got because my course required less points than I had. No indication of how easy or difficult the course was!! #edchatie
In reply to
@AshDonohoe, @CuffeL, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
I'm an advocate for PLC courses, I see them as a brilliant stepping stone between Post Primary and 3rd level and allow students develop skills they need. Courses are more focused and curriculum not as intense as PP. #edchatie
#edchatie Hard cases make for poor laws... I think its the same here. For many people its a good system which works well, and sorts aspirations from abilities effectively.
In reply to
@GoStressbusterz, @AshDonohoe, @pamelaaobrien, @conpower
This is a most welcome trend. Moving away from small specialized course entry with the points requirements all over the place on a year to year basis. #edchatie
In reply to
@AshDonohoe, @pamelaaobrien, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower, @MaynoothUni
We're into the famous final five minutes of tonight's #edchatie discussion on "Deep learning; is it possible at post-primary level?"
Any last thoughts, ideas, solutions or issues?
Transcript out tomorrow morning.
me too. Follow a passion where possible when choosing a college course is my advice. I didn't know what I wanted to do after college but knew I wanted to study Maths. Have had 3 diverse careers so far from my degree #edchatie
In reply to
@AshDonohoe, @CuffeL, @GoStressbusterz, @conpower
If we could reverse that approach into the second year of the LC cycle.. it could be a great move. The downside of PLC courses at the moment is the extra time required for that route. #edchatie
